Lightning Returns Discussion

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Joshua

Sphere Hunter
Oct 7, 2013
231
47
43
California
#1
Mark spoilers please...

I think we have a few threads opened at the moment but not really sure the best place to banter with the passionate XIII fanbases we have here about this game.

Some thoughts:

  • It's taken a few hours of playing this game to make me realize how much I missed the adventure from XIII-2.
  • The atmosphere is pretty good, there's quite a bit of melancholy and dread knowing the world is stale and about to end.
  • The battle system is a bigger nut to crack than I was expecting and I kind of wish I had started on Easy. I know some folks like bigger challenges but I'm a lighter player than most.

Some questions for those who are further along:

Q1: are there ANY returning locales from the first two games? Aside from The Ark...

Q2: suggestions on building a good debuff (saboteur) build early game (around day 3)?

Q3: I feel real stupid for asking but some tips for staggering? I see the wavelength meter thing but I clearly must be missing something.
 

Ehren

The Sunflower Knight
Moderator
Site Staff
Sep 17, 2013
212
109
35
Bethany, Oklahoma
#2
A1:
Sort of, but not really. You can visit the ruins of Academia and enter Etro's Temple finally in the Wildlands, but beyond that the locations are all new. You can see fragments of the old world in both the Wildlands and the Dead Dunes, and the final dungeon contains four trials that have "apocalyptic vistas". This is a fancy way of saying you look out the window and see background art from four locations across XIII and XIII-2.

A2:
A rapier weapon is absolutely essential for a true Saboteur build. You can purchase them in the Dead Dunes bandit camp, but the Forge only appears after clearing Chapter 2-2 (the second part of the Dead Dunes story). Similarly, the garb best suited for the Saboteur role are found here. At the Dead Dunes station you can purchase Passion Rouge (1,250 gil) which comes with Deprotect and Deshell attached. Once you have the Ruffian Forge up and running, you can nab Dangerous Blossom (Debrave and Defaith) for the same price. Later on (Day 8 or 9) you can purchase Divergence (Debravega/Defaithga) and Sand Fox (Deprotega/Deshellga) for 5,000 gil apiece. Bear in mind that Divergence comes with the passive ability "Saboteur Drain", restoring a little HP when attacking enemies inflicted with ailments. Sand Fox comes with "Saboteur Siphon", which restores a few points of ATB for each attack against an enemy inflicted with ailments.

If you're really serious about having a Saboteur, though, you'll need to wait a while. Once you can safely fight in the Wildlands without too terribly much dying, hunt the Rafflesia enemy, the green slug with the flower on top of it. If you drive them to extinction (there are around 100 of them), the Last One of the species drops the precious "Skeleton Earrings" head accessory. This adds 100% more damage to each of your debuff attacks, and on subsequent playthroughs (as the accessory is upgraded) it can reach up to +150% I believe. Equipping a good rapier like the Carmen's Dance (Ruffian Forge Day 10, 88,000 Gil) will increase your ailment damage even further and improve the duration of debilitating effects. For the record, the last boss is immune to all ailments except Deprotect, Deshell, and Imperil.

A3:
Honestly, you just need to get it spiky and red. Most abilities have "Stagger Power" (how much they drive the stagger wave with each hit) and "Stagger Capability" (which stabilizes the wave and prevents it from dissipating) that will let you know how to proceed. Abilities like Blitz will maintain the stagger wave longer while not really adding to it, while Heavy Slash or Beat Down add massive points toward stagger and have little-to-no ability to maintain the levels they add. Every enemy seems to have different resistance to staggering, and some will have their wave dissipate MUCH more quickly than others. If you look at a creature's Libra and it says certain attacks are better for staggering (Example: "especially wind-based attacks"), USE THESE ABILITIES AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. Even if their base stagger power is lackluster, they see huge bonuses against the particular enemy you're facing and can really decide a battle.

Last but not least, constant attacks are import to maintaining stagger. If you've got the set-up savy, you can switch between two Schema and have two different abilities set to the same button. The result is that if you constantly switch back and forth between them, you will attack fully into your gauge runs out and you won't perform the "finale" strikes that (while dealing admittedly improved damage) have complicatd animations that take you a bit too long to recover from when it counts.

I think that's everything I can remember for now.
 

Ehren

The Sunflower Knight
Moderator
Site Staff
Sep 17, 2013
212
109
35
Bethany, Oklahoma
#3
Oh yes, Cyber Jumpsuit and White Mage are both good for their built-in Dispels if you prefer prevention of buffs to addition of debuffs.

I'll go into this more extensively later, but I've got a NG+ and am having some rage issues with the expense of the upgrading system. Far too expensive for something you can't even unlock till you beat the game the first time, particularly since the majority of materials can only be obtained in Hard.
 
Nov 29, 2013
60
15
29
#4
I actually did not use a garb that specialised in Saboteur spells. I've got Curse and Poison set to Watery Chorus, with Deprotect and Deshell placed on my Paladin. Imperil is terribly elusive, and it's the last Saboteur spell I need as replacement for Heavy Guard on my Soldier of Peace.

On a side note, I've actually found a few neat things in the battle system. Similar to a Just Guard whereby you negate damage by timing your guards perfectly, you can also perform Just Attacks. There should be a gold, sphere-like effect around Lightning whenever you time your attacks well, and the next attack should do somewhere around 20-25% increased damage.

Another one is regarding launched opponents. While attacking launched enemies, if you switch to a different ability before its final blow (doesn't matter which Schemata), you can actually start performing combos that keeps the enemy stuck in the air until you eventually run out of ATB. Quite useful for monsters that are giving you a hard time.

Also, I'm curious about something. How many hours did it take for you guys to finish the game, and how evenly spread were your activities across the 13 days? Currently on Day 5 with 32 hours in. Apparently you get better abilities past Day 7, but I think I've messed up by exterminating the majority of monsters in Luxerion, Yusnaan and the Wildlands lol. Because of this, I'm thinking of waiting two days before I enter the Dead Dunes, though I'm running out of quests to do.
 

Ehren

The Sunflower Knight
Moderator
Site Staff
Sep 17, 2013
212
109
35
Bethany, Oklahoma
#5
Yes, the launched opponents thing is part of what I mentioned above about switching schemata to prevent finisher animations. It's entirely possible to do the endless chaining trick without switching schemata, but ensures that your ATB gauge will deplete. Alternating between schema (particularly if they have high ATB speed and/or any of the Siphon abilities) will allow you to chain/keep them airborne for longer, potentially bordering on the infinite.

During my first playthrough I was in for about 30 hours and get to the end of Day 9 with most main quests finished. I avoided sidequests or monsters whenever I could, and used Chronostasis quite a bit to get things done quicker. Much of my time was spent exploring or turning in only Prayer Canvas collection quests.

My second playthrough, using the gimp's New Game+ you can get from the Crystal of Atonement if you can't beat the final boss, I abused Chronostasis as much as I possibly could. The result was my total completion of the story and the majority of quests by the end of Day 6. I rendered 12 species extinct in that time, including the Chocobo Eater and Earth Eater. After this I mostly just messed around until the extra day, where I defeated the secret boss in the Ultimate Lair quite handily.

If you want good abilities, it is best to let the creatures get stronger. You may have to wait until a NG+ to get what you'd like.
 
Nov 29, 2013
60
15
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#6
Yeah, it sucks that enemies get stronger in later days. I was looking forward to leveling "Attack" to max, but now that Gorgonopsids are exterminated, I don't have much to go on. The weapon from the Omega Reaver is great though. Easily the best weapon I have so far.
 

Ehren

The Sunflower Knight
Moderator
Site Staff
Sep 17, 2013
212
109
35
Bethany, Oklahoma
#8
Are you guys saying there are a finite number of monsters in game?
Yes, absolutely. The following enemies cannot be driven to extinction:

Personal Guard
Fanatic (Children of Etro)
Gertrude
Desdemona
Flanitor
Anubys
Set

Every other creature can be made extinct. Well... there's one more you will likely never drive to extinction, but technically can be wiped out. The Meonekton has an extinction threshold of 65,535 creatures. It has a Last One you can fight in the Ultimate Lair extra dungeon, but you probably won't be able to get rid of them naturally. They only really appear between 4AM and 6AM, you seemingly can only fight them one on one, and they don't generate much EP. Most creatures have a population of 30, 80, or 100. I believe Niblets are 120, and the most numerous outside of Meonektons.
 

Ehren

The Sunflower Knight
Moderator
Site Staff
Sep 17, 2013
212
109
35
Bethany, Oklahoma
#10
Since my review has to be late anyway and I'm having a hard time just finding time to play, my first playthrough went very quickly. I skipped five days at the inn I believe, and was definitely not strong enough to beat the final boss. My second playthrough was much more thorough, but I wanted to test how hard you could abuse Chronostasis on Easy so I completed almost everything the game had to offer on a non-NG+ playthrough by the end of Day 10. I'm doing a Normal and Hard Mode coming up, and I'm going to try to work down a groove so I'm not wasting time and having to use Chronostasis to get things done. It's useful for when you've just royally screwed your schedule over, but it can be way too easily abused.

Also, I would just like to say that weapon upgrading is really expensive to do on anything but Hard Mode. You have to buy low-to-mid-tier mats because they don't drop, and the mid-tier costs something like 3,000 gil apiece.
 

Joshua

Sphere Hunter
Oct 7, 2013
231
47
43
California
#11
So you can start from scratch under a set of failure criteria? What exactly happens if I go to the Inn and eat up all my spare time for the heck of it? Do I get to choose game difficulty again?
 

Ehren

The Sunflower Knight
Moderator
Site Staff
Sep 17, 2013
212
109
35
Bethany, Oklahoma
#12
As far as I know, yes. I managed to get to Day 13 by completing the main quests, so I wouldn't know what happens if you end earlier. I'm relatively certain they said you fail to save the world, you could start over again. The possibility of dying or running out of time was to be mitigated by this New Game+ lite feature. It doesn't unlock things like the Proof of Overcoming Limits or the weapon upgrading system, but you get to carry things over and obtain more powerful versions of the accessories you collected the first time around.
 

hui43210

Red Wings Commander
Sep 26, 2013
122
62
34
Ottawa, On
#13
I'm about 1.5 hours in...... and I'm not sure about this one. I was pumped going in but once the first cinematic kicked in I couldn't help but ask, "Is XV out yet? Type-0? This what I got to work with? alright." I was playing, then switched to FF6 and couldn't help but notice how much more compelling FF6 was. I just feel XIII's story was nicely wrapped up in, well, XIII.

This one just feels........ stupid, tacked on, and stupid. Did I mention Stupid? I do like Lumeria tho. :p I'm going to keep playing, but I'm also having way more fun with Persona 3, and one day soon EB will have more Bravely Default, so I may not finish LRXIII.
 

Somber

SOLDIER Second Class
Nov 22, 2013
309
308
#15
Hohoho. I've clocked in nearly 75 hours in game! NG+ hard mode is fun but I'm angry with getting EP and boss battles. Damn. I only get 1 EP for each boss battle and teleportation cost 3 EP! x_x

Earth Eater....that ugly big-ass b****** always force me to spend all potions and phoenix downs.
 
Sep 29, 2013
39
18
34
#16
Beat it on easy, took probably 40 hours, did almost all of the sidequests. My biggest issue with the game is that it reuses so much content from the other games, but i enjoyed it quite a bit, im going to do my next playthrough on normal, seems like they built the game to be replayed multiple times.
 
Likes: Joshua

Joshua

Sphere Hunter
Oct 7, 2013
231
47
43
California
#17
Facing a number of real life time-based factors I essentially "Reset" the game via the Inn, carrying what stat boosts and gear I had from my 5 hour playthrough over to an Easy difficulty game.

I feel pretty cheap for doing it but at this point I don't know if I have a chance for 80-100 hours on a non-handheld FF game :(

Plus with inFamous: Second Son next month, I have a deadline to wrap up the XIII story.
 
Nov 29, 2013
60
15
29
#18
So I've finally finished the game, clocking in at precisely 60 hours of gameplay. Finished about all the side quests, apart from two of the 3-star difficulty ones in the Dead Dunes; I assume they're currently impossible without NG+.

I actually finished everything on Day 9, then proceeded to do a lap around the world to buy new outfits and gear. Once that was done with, I pretty much put Lightning in a coma at the inn all the way to Day 13 lol.

Final boss was surprisingly easy. Not sure if it was just me being overpowered, but his first three forms didn't even require stagger to deal a considerable amount of damage. That being said, he at least offered some degree of challenge, unlike XIII-2's final boss.

My thoughts on the plot are that there isn't much of a plot. This is bad in one way, as it pretty much breaks the overarching flow of the storyline. It's actually a struggle at times to properly assess Lightning Returns' relation to the prequels. Square Enix went in a new direction with this third game, and I'm sure it must have caught a lot of people off guard. Simply not that much progression in the storyline. The plot's a mess, but that doesn't mean that the story itself is bad.

Here's how I see it. There are main quests which involve the cast of XIII, and there are side-quests whereby you entertain various NPCs. You solve their problems and, in the process, save their souls. The main quests are surprisingly short, and you'll find yourself spending a majority of your time on side quests. Main quests only serve as epilogues for the XIII characters. In fact, LR's story for the bulk of it is pretty much a compilation of epilogues for the various people you'll meet.

Each quest, both main and side, has its own unique storyline that I think is worth investing time in. You'll find that a lot of them serve to tell a story of how humans deal with death, but are still able to find some degree of hope amidst their despair. Of course, some are of rekindling relationships and finding hope in general, but I've discovered that a lot of the quests integrate death or loss of a loved one into their story. Both death and hope in the face of despair are recurring themes, and heck, Lightning pretty much shouts something similar to that in the ending. Even when there is death, ideas and memories live on through the rest of humanity. And those memories, of which evoke emotions such as hope, anger, love, sadness, and happiness, are what makes humanity strong. No matter what, humanity will continue to live on and find their way, through thick and thin. These are excellent morals, genuine morals that I rarely see in a video game story. Last one I played that actually did something as prominent was Persona 4, or perhaps Catherine. A lot of games tend to be morally ambiguous, and while that creates interesting conflict for plot, it's a nice change of pace when a game just there to instill positive ideas.

Being someone who has invested a lot of time into XIII and the Fabula Nova Crystallis mythology, as well as having an avid interest in literature, I actually found the story to be somewhat fitting. Yes, there's a lot of cheese, and on multiple occasions the narrative fails to explain things properly. Plot-wise, bad. Narrative-wise, confusing. But aside from those, the story isn't half as bad as people make it out to be. It's actually pretty heartfelt and clever.

As for gameplay, battle system is really fun. Square Enix took inspiration from the hack and slash genre of games and then sort of fit that into the typical XIII battle mechanics. Plenty of hidden mechanics and a multitude possibilities, which is what I've always enjoyed when playing through games like Bayonetta and Devil May Cry. From an RPG perspective, it's still pretty robust. You can still sort of grind your way to victory, and there are a lot of abilities, equipments, and stats for you to carefully customise. While skill does play a factor in battles now, the RPG factor is still key in deciding whether you win or lose a fight.

Exploration-wise, while I had fun managing time to finish up the quests the first time, I'm actually quite worried that I might not have the motivation for doing that again on NG+. Running around doing the same side quests and finding the same accessory locations feel a bit daunting. Not to mention exterminating monsters in order to make the Ultimate Lair much easier. It requires so much active participation, which would probably burn me out considering the amount of hours required for all that grinding.

Ended up writing more than I would've preferred lol. I liked the game, even if many don't. I just looked past the issues it has to find a few gems worth praising about. I am satisfied with this end to the XIII trilogy, and I'm proud to know I can justify my argument for liking it better than any hater could. It was a neat send-off, not just for Lightning, but for every other character and humanity itself.
 
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Likes: Sapientia

Storm2356

Clan Centurio Member
Oct 4, 2013
136
62
World B
#19
Currently playing the game for the third time overall, this time on Hard Mode. I'm honestly afraid of fighting the final boss, because I plan on getting the extra day. For those of you who don't know, according to the strategy guide, if you're on a New Game+ and you get the extra day, you're stuck with a more difficult version of the final boss. Honestly thinking of starting again on Normal (again) to see if I can even take him out. :/
 

Somber

SOLDIER Second Class
Nov 22, 2013
309
308
#20
One good tip! - Goddess Mode

Physically invulnerable - Use Cyber Jumpsuit garb. Equip Ghostly Hood and Guard Glove accessories.
Magically invulnerable - Use Quiet Guardian garb. Equip Preta Hood and Runic Ring accessories.