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Ch13+14: Niflheim &The Origin of Daemons Story Finds

Discussion in 'Final Fantasy XV - Spoiler Discussion' started by Jubileus, Dec 31, 2016.

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  1. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    Replayed Ch13 recently and I decided to do a more thorough investigation of the labs and rooms in this part of the game.

    Learned some very interesting story parts concerning daemons and the Niflheim Empire from research notes and through Arydn's trolling and so I'm gonna post them all here.

    • Daemon's were originally humans, but after becoming infected by a parasite/virus, they physically changed into Daemons and lost control of themselves.

      This can be seen when you look into the cells with the dead daemons. You will see human clothes lying next to them,implying that the Daemon was actually the lab worker.Actually the floor of the entire building is littered with human uniforms.


    • The city of Gralea was completely devoid of all human life by the time the gang arrive on the scene, since all the humans have already turned into Daemons by this point.

      Documents and reports throughout the labs state that this all started in Western Gralea, where huge numbers of people started to become missing from seemingly out of nowhere. It was around this time that the Daemon threat was first noticed and control units were sent to deal with the situation.

      Overtime, more and more people went missing, with reports of Daemon numbers rising considerably. It was then that they made the connection that the humans were turning into Daemons, with the Daemons spreading the pathogen around like rats and infecting normal humans (reminds me of Resident Evil a bit lol)


    • Niflheim was experimenting with technology that nullified the Royal Lucis family's magical powers. They started tests by measuring if they could nullify the warping abilities of the Kingsglaive, which proved successful.

      They later on started using this technology against The Six, where they fought against Shiva and defeated her successfully. It was documented this technology will weaken The Six considerable and is effective against them.

    • MT's are people infused with Daemonic properties, and programmed to be controlled by the Niflheim Empire.

      Shit's morbid, but they started to "incubate" young humans and imprinted them with a serial code (This be Prompto ladies and gentlemen). Overtime, they stopped using human personnel and workers in Zegnautus and outsourced the work to the MT's.

      During the time of the Daemonic spread, the unprogrammed MT's went wild and started killing everyone. Noctis says out loud that "There's something not right with these MT's." He is talking about the MT's that were not programmed to be under control on time before the infection began.

    • All of this progress was made possible with the help of Ardyn.

      He outright says that he finds it funny that Noctis has been killing humans this entire time instead of saving them (bastard was savage here since he laughed about it. All part of his master plan of tormenting Noctis and being a sadist and all)

      I also have reason to believe that Ardyn has the ability to infect people with the Daemonic pathogen if he so chooses. He did pave the way for the Empire to begin, resume, and advance their research after all and he probably did this by infecting people on purpose.

    • The power of the Empire, if you really think about it, is all because of the their willingness to experiment and use people arstheir pawns by infusing them with Daemonic properties. It's really quite sad, sick and twisted in a way, if not outright morbid and dark (reminds me of FF7, infusing Mako energy into Soldiers)

      The people of the real world all thought that Daemon's were just animals, but in Ch14, Talcott says that after some research, they found out that Daemon's are actually infected people, so the only merciful thing to do is put them out of their misery quickly.

      Within the Hammerhead diner, a document states that they found a DNA strand that shows a causal relationship between Daemon's dying (which unleashes a cloud of "smog") and the night becoming endless.

      As more Daemon's die, they release more of this "smog" and it rises up into the atmosphere and blocks out the Sunlight by absorbing light properties. The density of the "smog" is heavily concentrated in the ozone layer, successfully blocking out any light from reaching the planet's surface.
     
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  2. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    Still gonna search around for more info (in the game of course). If I find any more I'm gonna post them here. If anyone has anything to add, please feel free to do so.
     
  3. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    Random interesting facts about the guys:

    • Gladio doesn't have a girlfriend yet. Heard rumours saying he does, and that he's even with Monica. However after camping in the trailer, he and Prompto say that they're not married yet. Gladio is waiting for all of this to be over because he doesn't want his girlfriend to be worrying about him whenever he goes off to fight.

      Prompto has no game still even after all these years lol.

      Prompto suggests Gladio give romance classes, to which Ignis says he should give acting classes instead (Ignis being skeptical of Gladio's prowess lol). Gladio responds with "It's not acting. I keep it real with the ladies".

    • Ignis has been able to take care of himself quite well without help from others. Gladio suggests he follow Weskham's example and start a restaurant, to which he says if there is still demand for it in a post apocalyptic world, he'll think about it.
    I'll add more as I find them.
     
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  4. Nova

    Nova AVALANCHE Warrior

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    This actually makes people's reactions of "XV made the MTs into robots instead of actual people like Versus XIIII 2007" look twice more hilarious lol.
     
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  5. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    I didn't even know that was a thing lol

    The XV version is more dark and twisted I'd say, but I do like the direction they took with it. It's not too different from Mako infused Soldier's in FF7, but more evil.
     
  6. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    Daemon's being originally humans, with Ardyn being at the helm of this entire project, just does to show how much of a major douchebag he is (huge fan of him btw lol)

    Trying to think of a FF villain who was as douchebaggery as this but no one is coming to mind atm. Feel free to remind me if someone thinks of someone =P
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
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  7. APZonerunner

    APZonerunner Network Boss-man Staff Member Administrator Site Staff UFFSite Veteran

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    At some point there was clearly a shift though, as the soldiers in the Versus trailers/footage while of identical/similar design are visibly people in terms of how they animate but also because they visibly spill blood.

    Honestly, I always just took this as them wanting to skirt an M - the blood had to go, but rather than pull a Dynasty Warriors & sanitize it they just found a story excuse to lose the blood. It's just a reality of these things. We know from Nomura interviews that Versus was going to be the first 'adult rated' FF, but 15 came out with a T, and that's just a 'for mass market appeal' consideration... it's nothing terrible.
     
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  8. Nova

    Nova AVALANCHE Warrior

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    Not arguing about the blood part, however even in the Versus XIII 2011 footage the MTs were shown exploding upon defeat with no blood shown anywhere.
     
  9. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    It makes me wonder...what's wrong with having a mainline FF title with an M rating?

    People pick up and play games regardless of their rating from what I've seen. Perhaps a game with an M rating isn't allowed as much freedom and room for advertising as opposed to a T rated game?
     
  10. Storm

    Storm AVALANCHE Warrior

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    i'm already checked the papers on chapter 13 (explored every nook), but completely missed this information:

    • "Gladio doesn't have a girlfriend yet. Heard rumours saying he does, and that he's even with Monica. However after camping in the trailer, he and Prompto say that they're not married yet. Gladio is waiting for all of this to be over because he doesn't want his girlfriend to be worrying about him whenever he goes off to fight.

      Prompto has no game still even after all these years lol.

      Prompto suggests Gladio give romance classes, to which Ignis says he should give acting classes instead (Ignis being skeptical of Gladio's prowess lol). Gladio responds with "It's not acting. I keep it real with the ladies".

    • Ignis has been able to take care of himself quite well without help from others. Gladio suggests he follow Weskham's example and start a restaurant, to which he says if there is still demand for it in a post apocalyptic world, he'll think about it."
    thanks a lot

    in 2013 they spilled blue blood, maybe they already traded real blood for oil; nothing beats "cindy would never be part of nomura's vision" tho
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
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  11. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    Just remembered something in Ch13 regarding Ravus.

    He regularly sent letters to Lunafreya. On the outside he was working with Niflheim, but it seems like he used his position to keep an eye on her, and to find out what plans the Empire had in store for her.

    There should be 3-4 letters on the ground next the Ravus when you find him. They say something along these lines:

    • She and Gentiana should leave Lucis as quick as possible since the Empire is out hunting for them. He's going to send an escort to them.

    • He does not approve of Luna sacrificing herself for Noctis, she needs to take better care of herself. Noctis may have received the blessing by the God of Storm but his potential is only that of a wind's breeze (man the disapproval over Noctis' was strong in this one xD)
    Ravus always struck me as the type to not giving a rats ass about anyone but himself and his sister. Can't say I blame him though.
     
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  12. Ikkin

    Ikkin ShinRa SOLDIER

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    Nomura seems to have gone back and forth on how to deal with blood throughout his tenure. The 2006 trailer showed blood spurting out of one of the Niflheim soldiers after Noct impaled him and the 2010 Behemoth teaser showed massive blood fountains every time Noct struck, but 2011 severely decreased the size of the blood effects when striking the Behemoth and included no blood whatsoever when striking the Niflheim soldiers (while also implementing blue blood effects for the proto-daemons). And then after that, 2013 implemented the weird blue blood for what must have already been MTs on top of the 2011 standard.

    Given that this started before the transition to FFXV, I kind of suspect that Nomura lost interest in making Versus be the edgiest FF after Type-0 laid claim to that title and he decided to change things to avoid alienating a chunk of FF's usual target audience.

    As for Tabata, I get the impression that the game's current state is a matter more of necessity than of choice, since the Duscae demo included purple blood effects that were replaced by much rarer black blood effects in the final game. My guess is that this might have been a compromise designed to allow for the game's rather graphic body horror elements at the desired rating.

    As far as ratings go, the ESRB is probably the least of Squenix's concerns, except insofar as it's probably harder to achieve in some ways than a 15/16 equivalent. I get the impression that avoiding a CERO D or a CERO Z in Japan is way more important for JRPGs in Japan than avoiding an M over here, and even Europe's PEGI 18 is a more thorough bar on sales and advertising than an M would ever be.

    It's worth noting that, while Type-0 shares FFXV's CERO C and PEGI 16 ratings, it accepted an M from the ESRB.

    Of course, it's also possible that the concern isn't with the standard ratings agencies but with some of the more unusual territories like China and Russia who also received the game. China in particular is both known to have censored the game beyond the worldwide standard (i.e. Shiva's costume changes) and suspected to have been responsible for some universal lore changes (i.e. the reaper worship thing that none of the standard ratings agencies seem likely to have concerned themselves with).

    I got heavy, heavy Kingdom Hearts vibes from the daemon experiments, actually:

    Ansem Report 2: The experiments caused the test subject's heart to collapse, including those of the most stalwart. How fragile our hearts are! My treatment produced no signs of recovery. I confined those who had completely lost their hearts beneath the castle.

    Some time later, I went below and was greeted by the strangest sight. Creatures that seemed born of darkness...What are they? Are they truly sentient beings? Could they be the shadows of those who lost their hearts in my experiments?


    Ansem Report 4: The Heartless appear in groups, and are multiplying rapidly. I've provided them both living and nonliving samples. They've responded only to the living. They seem to multiply after absorbing something from the living creatures. Their prey vanishes without a trace.

    Ansem Report 8: As a start, I have built a device that artificially creates Heartless. By recreating the conditions that spawn the Heartless naturally, I should be able to produce them artificially. This device is the culmination of all my research thus far. The machine's test run successfully created a Heartless.

    Experiments that resulted in the vanishing of human test subjects and the production of monsters, artificial generation of corrupted beings... there are even some visual similarities in the manufacturing facilities and lab areas. And, unlike the Mako experiments (which were at least intended to produce super-powered humans), the result in both XV and KH is universally beyond salvation and must be put down (though KH offers hope for restoration after that that XV doesn't).

    XV's version is way more body horror-y, though... at least apart from World of Chaos. XD;
     
  13. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    Very nice reference!

    Yknow it's been a long time since I played a KH game so I completely forgot about those Ansem reports.

    You're right. The similarities sure are striking. It would be wonderful if they managed to do into more depth regarding these experiments, as well as showing cutscenes and footage of them being performed with Ardyn participating.

    Lots of people didn't like ch13, and while I agree that it was a bit too long, finding the story parts made up for it in my eyes. It was fascinating finding those documents.
     
  14. APZonerunner

    APZonerunner Network Boss-man Staff Member Administrator Site Staff UFFSite Veteran

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    I think in this age they might actually do better by going for it and accepting it - because ironically they spend so much time aiming squarely at the audience of a bunch of M-rated games (Skyrim, Witcher, Dragon Age) but then tame it a bit; I wonder if they'd really be impacted by going for it and accepting the M. They want to have their cake and eat it though; they want that audience AND the teen anime fan audience. One of their challenges is that the Western audience for anime in general (not just in games) has shrunk drastically in the last decade, though.

    It's not so much about advertising as, well, look how aggressively Skyrim and Fallout and even GTA if we want to go outside RPGs are marketed - it's about being worried about narrowing their audience, is all. This is why they'd feel safe doing this stuff in a spin-off but not in the core series.
     
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  15. Ikkin

    Ikkin ShinRa SOLDIER

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    Thanks! ^_^

    It probably isn't all too difficult to forget about the Ansem Reports if you haven't been heavily involved in KH fandom, given their semi-optional nature and -- at least in the first game -- their strong tonal inconsistency with the rest of the game. Once you start drawing parallels, though, it's kind of hard to deny that the lore in Chapter 13 has Nomura's signature all over it. XD

    The funny thing about wishing for cutscenes showing the experiments is that KH still hasn't done that. It's been hinting that Axel/Lea and Saix/Isa were test subjects, though, so it probably will get around to it eventually. XV, in contrast, doesn't have future games to lean on, but there are still hooks that it could use to add relevant cutscenes (most notably, Prompto's DLC and the need to show how, exactly, Iedolas got corrupted).

    I found the tone of Chapter 13 intentionally oppressive and therefore wanted to get out of there ASAP, but I definitely appreciated the reports and started seeking them out once I realized they were there. XD;

    The "Stand by Me" ad kind of gave me the impression that they were specifically looking to be a family-friendly alternative to those games, honestly, which isn't exactly a bad idea. And it doesn't necessarily have to do with targeting teen anime fans, since Sony's probably trying to do the same thing with Horizon (which isn't anime at all) while Atlus is perfectly happy with M-rated Persona games.

    And, again, Type-0 and XV earned the same rating from most non-US ratings boards and XV's supplemental material pushed its own ratings to their limits, so I'm not sure the two were seen as differently as one might think. Type-0 just had the benefit of only needing to earn a CERO C.
     
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  16. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    In ch14, right before you enter the throne room to face Ardyn, you can examine 3 paintings in the room.

    • Painting 1 - Igni asks if the painting of the prophecy still adorns the walls, to which Prompto says "Yes, in all its glory". Gladio says "Lets see if the story is true", and Noctis replies "I'll make sure that it does."
    • Painting 2 - Noctis says Ardyn was supposed to be in the painting of the past Lucis Kings. Gladio says it's hard to believe that Ardyn was royalty since he doesn't look the part. Noctis says Ardyn has been living a very long time, in a world where he could share it with no one (that's kinda sad)
    • Painting 3 - Prompto in disbelief says that Ardyn is the darkness as said in the prophecy. Ignis says it's ironic since he was meant to be the King of Light, with Noctis being the only person who can save Ardyn from his own darkness. Prompto thinks it's cool he's friends with the person who is going to write the final chapter of the legends xD

    If you loiter around the room a bit you'll encounter some extra dialogue, like Ignis asking if the markings left on a painting done by Noctis when he was a child still there, to which Noctis replied his attendant covered it up for him.

    Another one is Noctis always hated the throne room because his father was always sad and anxious whenever he stepped foot in it.

    Ignis replied with that was because it reminded him of his sons tragic fate.
     
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  17. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    An interest bonus is when choosing a photo to take with you, take your time to listen to all the different dialogue that comes up. Each picture is different so make sure you saved a variety of them.

    For example, if you try to take a pic of the one where Iris is sitting on the bed with Noctis in Lestallum, Gladio slyly says "interesting choice there noct. Guess big brothers gotta turn a blind eye from time to time" xD

    Or if you try to take a Solon picture of Noctis, Prompto teases him saying "so the guy who hates having his photo taken only wants a photo of himself"
    Ignis responds with "you can really see the change" lol. Actually, if you pick a solo photo of any one of the guys, you'll get "that's a weird choice.. I'm flattered but that's strange.." kinda responses lol

    If you pick one of Ardyn, Gladio scoffs and says "that's a heck of a choice. So a king forgives and forgets"

    Choosing one with only Ravus will get a shocked and disbelieving reaction from Prompto.

    Choose one of Aranea and Prompto will tease Noctis, saying "I compleeetely get your choice here dude" ;)
     
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  18. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    I agree. I think if they just let themselves off the hook and created the game how they wanted to without worrying about ratings and censorship, it would strengthen the storytelling and tone of the game.

    I think a part of the reason for story changes was due to them asking "would this be appropriate for a mainline title?"

    It's kinda restrictive in a sense and does more harm than good.
     
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  19. Ikkin

    Ikkin ShinRa SOLDIER

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    The best new feature in video games continues to get better. XD Seriously, though, it's like they thought of everything. And it's also kind of reminding me of this article I read about Earthbound and the way that game plays with the line between comedy and tragedy.

    ...actually, I think I heard that Prompto can actually reference that game's camera man when taking pictures -- "Say fuzzy pickles!" -- so maybe it's an influence.

    Apart from black blood (which is irrelevant to the story), robotic MTs (which were implied all the way back in 2013 when Nomura was still in charge and may have even been implemented in 2011 given their distinct lack of blood), and reaper worship (which has heavy FNC ties), is there any indication that story changes were made to maintain a T rating as opposed to simply scrubbing explicit FNC references?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
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  20. Guitar (pseudo)God

    Guitar (pseudo)God Red Wings Commander

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    Thanks for this list. I paid attention to the lore while playing Chapter 13. The story made slogging through the Ring-only part worth it -- and while it was clunky, it was nowhere near as bad as people made it out to be.

    It's quite the nod to the game's FNC roots. In FFXIII, the entirety of Gran Pulse was devoid of human life - having all been turned to C'eith/Daemons/Bad Guys.
     
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