Discussion in 'Final Fantasy XV - Spoiler Discussion' started by Ikkin, Jan 3, 2017.
oh that sounds like a certan FFXIV plot point, makes sense
I thought it said that the Crystal and Ring of the Lucii were given to mankind to help fight the Starscourge, or rather to act as tools for the Chosen when they were born while the Lucian line protected it.
Finding Ultimania translations online, it's clear that the Six and the Crystal were created through the "power of the stars", which seems to be separate from the Astrals. So there is indeed a higher power than the Astrals that likely created Eos. I knew it!
In XIV, the Primals (as proven by the manifestation of Saint Shiva) are generated by belief or faith given physical form through magical crystals and thus bound to some kind of servitude or at least service to their devotees, rather than actual (roughly) independent beings as the Astrals are.
But I can see the parallel.
I know, but what I mean is, I got the impression from Ardyn's dialogue that he thought he was supposed to be the one who would use the Crystal's power but he was rejected because of his absorption of daemons (in particular, he says he was forbidden from ascending).
I don't think what he said is consistent with the Crystal being given to the guy who replaced him, and I don't think he could have received the Crystal personally because then it would have been too obvious that his way of handling the situation wasn't going to work.
"In ages long past, an incurable scourge ravaged mankind. A tiny menace that twisted men into monsters, the like of which you've seen. In Lucis lived a savior who could cure the afflicted. His body would come to host myriad daemons, that countless lives be spared. But a jealous King, one not yet chosen by the crystal, ostracized and demonized this healer of the people. Making a true monster of him. I gave you my name earlier but you should know it was not the name given to me at birth. Ardyn Lucis Caelum is my proper name. You'll never guess whose name Izunia was. Noct, killing you as a mortal will bring me scant satisfaction. Claim the crystal's power, arise as it's champion. Only once the crystal and King are no more...can I know redemption. Come back soon. I shall keep your friends company until you are ready." - Ardyn
"A man cursed with life eternal, whose immortality stems from the selfsame scourge that wrought the daemons. One so impure of body and soul was deemed unworthy of the Crystal's light, and forbidden to ascend. His mind twisted by spite and bent on revenge, the Usurper came to bring darkness down upon our world. Only the True King, chosen by the Crystal and guarded by his forebears, can end the Accursed's madness." - Bahamut
The crystal is a power source. It makes more sense the ones who generated this power pick and choose who can control it. Remember Bahamut resided in the crystal. And inside it is "Providence", a light capable of banishing the daemon infected darkness (Arydn). "Providence" becomes stronger over time as more "pure" kings take on the title King.
Ardyn was marginalized by the Astrals and denied ascension because with that many daemons inside of him the Astrals understood he was unclean/impure. He did not stop until he reached immortality and by then it was now out of spite. Other Kings and Oracles can purify without being corrupted, but Ardyn must have scummed to those daemons for the Astrals to leave him ostracized by his own people. Of course his word puts him in a sympathetic light. His actions... no. The Astrals denied him, not the crystal itself. Noctis, Luna, Regis, and I'm sure the original Ardyn weren't narcissist before and after purifying, which most likely was the current Ardyn's problem.
The Six are the Astrals. The Astrals are the PHYSICAL manifestation of stars.
Astral = Star. "Astral" is derived from the Latin word Astra (star). Same thing. Sentient life forces originating from a star's power. They're that power in physical form. They created the Ring, gave a Tennebrae maiden the tradition, bestowed powers upon the Lucis and Tennebrae royalty, crafted the crystal, shaped the Starscourge, etc. There is no visible creator deity on disc and the links speak of none either. However, "the planet did it" comes up after magic/Astrals destroy bits of Eos. Suddenly Eos heals.
Overall the Astrals are dicks who made Eos a living hell. Worst gods ever.
so what's the deal with pitioss? any opinions?
it's certainly from the solheim era, the giant statues could be alluding to the gods
the devil statues = ifrit, and the woman statue = shiva
it's a shame the ultimania didn't mentioned this dungeon or gave any insight about it's creation.
Both of the monologues you quoted refer to the Crystal as the one doing the choosing -- "one not yet chosen by the crystal," "only the True King, chosen by the Crystal," etc.
I don't think we're meant to see Bahamut residing inside the Crystal, either -- he appears there, but he also appears outside to fight Ifrit (and had done so previously to give his trident to the Oracle line), so there's no reason to believe it's his permanent residence.
Anyway, my understanding of the Ardyn situation is this:
* Ardyn saw the Starscourge wreaking havoc and decided that something needed to be done about it. He discovered that he could heal people by absorbing daemons into himself.
* Doing this made him impure. Therefore, he was deemed unworthy of the Crystal and was denied ascension. (Presumably in the sense that he either couldn't be a Lucii or couldn't be the Chosen.)
* Furthermore, he was demonized for this by another king who hadn't yet been chosen by the Crystal but eventually received Ardyn's last name as a title when he took Ardyn's place in the royal line.
My contention is that if the Crystal hadn't already been passed to the Lucis Caelum line, the Crystal wouldn't have bothered judging Ardyn in the first place, because the Astrals would have found someone else to fill that role in the first place instead of attempting to bestow the Crystal on him.
It's also implied that Ardyn should have been in the Cosmogony painting, which only really makes sense if he was a former King of Lucis after the Crystal had already become a known thing (since he wouldn't have needed to be there if he'd been cut out of the Crystal line before it even started).
As for the difference between what Luna did and what Ardyn tried to do, it seems like Luna's healing derived from the Astrals' light, while Ardyn attempted to fix the problem by taking the evil into himself. It makes perfect sense that he'd end up corrupted in the process and let his worst impulses take over.
Eos itself is referred to as a Star, and the Crystal is referred to as its heart. The Ultimania claims that the planet produced the Crystal, which makes sense considering that. It's plausible that the planet is a higher power than even the Astrals.
As for the Astrals' competency as gods, it seems like most of the problems were caused by Ifrit's overt hatred of humanity, with the others generally only making things worse in the sense that they cause collateral damage when testing people. They're not omnipotent enough for their handling of chosen humans to seem like unnecessary cruelty any more than the behavior of the humans in question does. *shrugs*
Within the FF series, I'd place them just behind the Occuria (minus Venat of course) and Bhunivelze and associated fal'Cie constructs (minus Etro) in terms of them being unlucky deities to have about the world. And they certainly can't hold a candle to Drakengard's "God". But yes, they're hardly the things I'd want to have on my world.
We've still got the Ultimania Omega to look forward to if SQEX follows the standard pattern. And as to the Pitioss dungeon. I really didn't see those things as representing the Astrals specifically, unless the ones who built that place were humanizing them in a major way.
I could say the same for Steyliff Grove and Costlemark.
Those places are ancient and their architecture is amazing.
In Steyliff Grove, looking like you were underwater when you weren't and the fallen rocks reverting back into the ceiling as if a time loop or something was taking place was fascinating.
I think you're underestimating FF's tendency to have overtly awful gods. xD
FFVI had the Warring Triad, who were suspicious of each other for no good reason and turned humans into Esper slaves to fight for them.
FFVIII had a creator figure who was a real piece of work, to the point that humanity tried to kill him. And then he made the Sorceresses to hide his power from them.
FFX had Yu Yevon, who was both a fraud and the being responsible for Sin's spiral of death.
FFXII had the Occuria, who were thoroughly awful.
FFXIII had Bhunivelze and his Fal'Cie, all of whom were looking for ways to murder enough humans to open Etro's gate.
And FF Tactics went full heresy and had their Jesus Expy be a demon whose true form could only be resurrected through sufficient human bloodshed.
None of the other offline mainline games have meaningful deity figures. Dissidia has Cosmos, but she's practically useless (kind of like Etro =P ).
As such, apart from Ifrit, I'd argue that the Astrals are a step up from pretty much all of them. xD; At least Shiva, Ramuh, and Bahamut seem to want to help, even if they're not particularly concerned with the fates of individuals.
Ikkin the Crystal is not the one dictating and deciding people's fate. It's merely a object made for those its creators allow to wield it. Much like the Trails Astrals brought forth to decide who can borrow their strength.
On disc the Crystal is not choosing anyone. Nobody speaks to the Crystal as if it's alive. On the other hand, they do to those who crafted it and every other object imbuing with magical powers. When the state of Eos is spoken it's manged through purple prose. Fancy, theatrical, and poetic. That's shorthand for us to automatically except this is mythology because hear how mythological it sounds! Don't take everything Bahamut and Ardyn speaks in a literal manner, especially because one's narrator view point is unreliable. Focus more on the actions that matches what's directly stated.
Every time the Crystal shows up on screen it's not doing anything. People have to do something to it. There's no visible signs of it having sentience or the tendency to act on its own. Providence never flies away, looking for a host. Instead the Ring of Light channels Providence. It took ten years for the ring to suck it all in, but the ring still can only be used by those the Lucii chooses. When the ring is put on a bearer like Ravus right off the back they are in direct contact with them. And he is as we see from Nxy's perspective. It's not the ring that refuses him. It's the Lucii.
We were meant to meet Bahamut in the Crystal and since he last fought Ifirit he obviously never left from it. He can only be summoned when fighting Ifirit again because that's what Tabata wanted. Yep only in one gamepaly segment against the second final boss. From the narration it's only until Noctis ascends can he summon Bahamut. The Astral grants him that ability after his character growth. Prior to it Bahamut waited. By the time Noctis was born there were enough kings for a True King to become OP enough, so Bahamut choose him.
The Crystal contains Eos's soul according to Bahamut except that's figurative speech; the Crystal is destroyed and Noctis is killed, yet Eos still flourishes. Eos is an actual planet. If Eos's survival was dependent on the Crystal then the Crystal would come out in the foreground story a lot more. It's not like Eos turns into Mars if something bad happened to the Crystal. I never noticed that angel. The Crystal just contains the power necessary to defeat an evil mad man. Nothing more. And it's the Astrals fault.
They are the omnipotent narrators though when it comes to historical events on Eos, knowing everything, and that's what the UL summarizes. They know this happened because of this and that led to this that led to something else. They know it in details humans are clueless about
Certainly nothing visible, but translation information from the Kingsglaive promotional booklet given out during its Japanese cinema run says that the Crystal has a limited will of its own. Whether that's referring to Bahamut or not I don't know.
@All Hail King Bimpy --
Every time anyone -- including Luna, who has no reason not to be forthcoming -- mentions Noct's status as Chosen, they say he was chosen by the Crystal. If the game intended to contradict that, it would have needed to do so directly.
And the Crystal did display the ability to act of its own accord at least once, when it bound Noct the moment he touched it and dragged him inside against his will. (Blaming that on Bahamut just because the Crystal is generally inert is circular reasoning and therefore unconvincing.)
It's not clear that the Crystal was destroyed by using it. Even if it was, though, its light would have spread throughout the world, so the "soul of the Star" could have remained in existence.
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