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Final Fantasy XVI Discussions (TBA)

Discussion in 'Final Fantasy Discussion' started by Skye, Oct 18, 2013.

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  1. Hey Everyone

    Hey Everyone ShinRa SOLDIER

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    Do FF sequels really take away from the focus of new things? If I remember Square has several business divisions
    BD1 making the 7 Remake and BD2 was making FFXV, and BD5 working on XIV expansions, and possibly working on XVI. The only thing an FF sequels can do is well, just be FF sequels those making let's say XV sequels aren't the same development team as those would be making XVI. The XIII sequels me personally I hated them because they were just not very good, and halted the development of a game I actually wanted and still want to this day though that was more of shitty engine issues then them simply existing.
    I'd rather they wait on XVI, personally myself I don't really care about the next mainline installment as they have absolutely soured me after XV, but for the sake of us not having a repeat of Versus XIII, XVI should be worked on when they know what they are doing and not trying to cram in so many ideas to appease as many people as possible, and when they can commit to a system this time.
     
  2. Tornak

    Tornak ShinRa SOLDIER

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    With focus I mostly mean money and manpower, yeah. I know about the divisions, but if you have to release a sequel of a mainline, no matter how much you can reduce the development time or salvage resources, you still take a chunk of a budget and people that could be better spent in a global effort (like, helping produce a mainline) or, better yet, games the scale of a numbered FF sequel that are new IPs or abandoned ones. Also, marketing focus, although that honestly shouldn't affect other games' schedules.

    Also, one of my main complaints would be a more subjective and creative one: you burn out the consumer shitting out sequels, especially if (like in every single case in the series so far) is not something that a signficant amount of people are demanding or is needed. Also, and again judging based on S-E's output in this regard, they... "uglify" the initial product, in some certain way, especially as they're always somewhat inferior than the originals (X-2's combat system is still great, though. And LR's seems to be pretty fun, or so I've read).

    But yeah, I'd rather wait on XVI if that means that the game's going to have a healthy development, too. But, tbh, whatever grips we might have with XV aren't going to be very impactful in regards to XVI, as XV is a special case and also a game developed by a different group of people (XV's team will probably work on Tabata's new IP). I honestly believe that there has been actual work done in XVI for, at least, a year or so. Hopefully even beyond the pre-production phase.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2017
  3. Hey Everyone

    Hey Everyone ShinRa SOLDIER

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    >With focus I mostly mean money and manpower, yeah. I know about the divisions, but if you have to release a sequel of a mainline, no matter how much you can reduce the development time or salvage resources, you still take a chunk of a budget and people that could be better spent in a global effort (like, helping produce a mainline) or, better yet, games the scale of a numbered FF sequel that are new IPs or abandoned ones. Also, marketing focus, although that honestly shouldn't affect other games' schedules.

    That's assuming the budget or manpower would have gone to the mainline or new IPs in the first place if Square has a set budget for a mainline title they are going to stick to it, in game development more is not always merrier, and for new IPs, companies come up with those all the time, but investors go no, due to a lack of faith in them, it's not really because they are working on a sequel or spin-off.




    But yeah, I'd rather wait on XVI if that means that the game's going to have a healthy development, too. But, tbh, whatever grips we might have with XV aren't going to be very impactful in regards to XVI, as XV is a special case and also a game developed by a different group of people (XV's team will probably work on Tabata's new IP). I honestly believe that there has been actual work done in XVI for, at least, a year or so. Hopefully even beyond the pre-production phase.

    Me I just don't have faith in Square not making another FFXIII where I hate the characters, or don't care for them as much as the XV cast, and they are probably going to be less wasted than the XV cast, but I won't like them as much. Oh and the combat system yeah I have a feeling they might go with 12's combat system.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2017
  4. Tornak

    Tornak ShinRa SOLDIER

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    But any sequel or spin-off of a mainline numbered title is going to need extra efforts by people who have just shipped a big game already. That could be directed towards something new and different, whether an existing IP or a new one. Doing the same shit over and over only gets people (both developers and fans) tired of the same thing.

    And make no mistake, if XIII sequels exist is because of how much of an embarrasing mess S-E was during last generation. They might have still made them, sure, but the main motivation was making money back (as a business, a correct decision).

    I have hope that they can do something not only better than the last two mainline SP ones, but actually amazing (XIII was serviceable to nice even though I hate it and its trilogy; XV was good but with a myriad of flaws, some of them very crucial): you only need to get Ito to helm it (and create the battle system), your most competent writers (like Jun Akiyama and someone else, but having an gripping story concept beforehand, which XII sadly kinda lacked) and a new artist (like the guy who did the Game Informer FF XV cover, as well as that FFVI-looking Happy New Year card; great art and I'm sure he could create nice designs).

    Every FF having a different development team (at least in recent times) and different development times is what gives me hope, honestly. Also, the mistakes learnt from the PS3 era and XV's own faults.
     
  5. Hey Everyone

    Hey Everyone ShinRa SOLDIER

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    Assuming Square would direct it towards something new and different their shareholders care about sales, why do you think XV is in the state that's it's in, so even if they could doesn't mean they would, not in the slightest.



    That's great if you do, but me personally I have no hope regardless of the director, Square was the one that fucked XII, XIII, XIV, and XV unless their management gets 100 percent better, the only thing I can think of them doing with XVI, is trying to make an entirely new engine for it, or something drastically improves from Luminous, but it's unfinished, and they try to ship out the game in 2.5 years of time, when it needs much more than that, and they sell enhanced versions of the cut content, and worse they pull the same shit from FFXV(You can only play as the main character), because they know that will sell, all they have to do is hype it.


    I have absolutely no hope for XVI, there is no evidence to suggest that Ito is directing it, no evidence that it will have a good battle system, or even better than XV, no evidence to suggest the story will even be as good, or better than XV. Hell a lot of this hope practically mirrors those that want Versus XV, a director they have faith in, a writer they have faith in, though at the very least they have an idea on how enjoyable it would be considering how some parts of FFXV turned out, at the very least they have assets to work with, so if they decided to pull the whole 2.5 year development cycle they would have some basis that could make it work if it's multi-part, XVI we have nothing no assets they can use, no basis everything is being made from scratch, and considering Square's decisions in the past, it's not the directors that are the problem, hell I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't the writer that was really the problem, and Nojima's story really couldn't be crammed into 1 game, and the changes were simply made out of writer necessity for example Luna being Noct's bride to be, which is why he's outside of the crown city when it was attacked. Square needs better management that respects their creative talent, and their visions, that don't have unrealistic expectations ie. Trying to get Nomura's version of FFXV out by 2014, on a brand new fucking engine no less, if it was Unreal Engine 4 then I could somewhat understand. Get more creative talent there was absolutely no reason Nojima, and Nomura should have been pulled off FFXV to direct a Remake of a game, when most people just wanted a remaster with better graphics, and better animations, and voice acting, as opposed to the multi-part nature, but if they needed to get this remake done the way it was, it should have been with new creative talent that wouldn't cause XV to lose it's original director, and writer. Until then, they have burned my goodwill, even when I wasn't expect XV to be Versus XIII I was at the very least expecting, great character development, and characters that are used to their full capacity, difficulty that is on par with Kingdom Hearts 2 on Normal, well designed boss fights, they couldn't even manage that. Hell I was expect Luna to be a great character, someone I can definitively say yeah I don't care about Stella anymore, and they dropped the ball hard.

    TBH at this point, considering how XV turned out, I don't really care about XVI, I'm at the point where I'm more interested in sequels and spin-offs than anything new coming out of Square especially a mainline title, their management is detrimental to their creativity.
     
  6. Tornak

    Tornak ShinRa SOLDIER

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    XV is in the state it is because of them not knowing how to get into HD development, introducing games years before proper development even started, trying to make a profit of undoubtedly huge investment (hence, the XIII trilogy), releasing a mess of a game (XIV), having to pull all of your manpower to fix it (ARR) and then starting anew in a brand new generation of consoles, with the script changing more often than not and not a clear vision up until 2012, when a hard date was decide. To that, add having to ditch Crystal Tools, and then using Ebony as well as Luminous Engine when the latter was being worked on at the same time. It's a HIGHLY unusual, overall, situation.

    They have more than a couple of divisions to work properly on different stuff concurrently, and a new IP (not even AAA, you can create great and profitable games like Nier: Automata)/another untouched IP/a new mainline FF is going to get more potential sales than the umpteenth return of Lightning. These might be better in the shorter term, but they mud their library and ulitmately prevent it from growing, just doing the same stuff over and over, throwing shit to a wall until it gets stuck and basically working as patches (because XIII were patches in more than a few ways -namely, linearity, more combat freedom...-. A sequel to XV would be the exact same. It's a very sad thought).

    Btw, if Ito isn't the director, I won't throw shitfits like many do with everything Nomura-related. He's one of many directors within a company that's slowly starting to grow again (and also happens to be the most talented one of the old guard). They're a huge company, it's if they try to get Toriyama or whoever to direct the project when you should worry. Everything has been a mess ever since the FNC was announced, and only recently, with ARR and XV (dissapointing, but a good game that had potential to become a great one with more time or better management), they've gotten to a level that's not embarrasing. If they can't find decent people both creatively and management-wise (Tabata is less of a creative force, unfortunately), then I don't know what to tell them.

    I'll always be pessimistic with S-E, but denying the potential, especially when there are so many teams, seems a bit absurd and mostly just emotional talk. They have a shitton of money, resources, relationships and investors, they have a from decent-to-good seller in XV, as well as succesful mobile games and MMORPGs: they definitively have talent over at, say, BD5 to produce a good game within FF standards of before, even if they have to adapt to a SP structure.

    You're honestly just letting the frustation get to you and extrapolating everything that went wrong with XV. And no offense, but you don't strike me as a person who was too interested in the series beyond Versus, so of course you feel like that, and that's fine.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2017
  7. Hey Everyone

    Hey Everyone ShinRa SOLDIER

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    I know the potential is there, but it's heavily squandered by their management. FFXV was just straw that broke the camel's back, though I will admit it was FF7, Kingdom Hearts, and Versus XIII is what made me try Final Fantasy. I extrapolate because unless their management improves I have almost no reason to believe they won't make the same mistakes especially considering how successful FFXV is by being the jack of all trades master of none. It's because they have history with bad development cycles, hell it's gotten to the point that I'm actually afraid for Kingdom Hearts 3(my heart can't take that ok?, if KH3 ends up like FFXV). XIII, XIV, and XV suffered from bad developmental cycles, and bad management, but mainly bad management.
    Also extrapolation from XV is because it's their most modern developer and marketing fuck up. That and because it failed my basic expectations. Also I was interested in the franchise past XV if XV did well, and lived up to my very basic expectations, as well as being a great not just a good game it didn't do it, therefore my expectations past XV is very low

    I wouldn't 100 percent blame the FNC shit on Toriyama that lies to the feet of Wada, that nigga practically forced out an FFXIII-2, and was heavily in charge of the XIII, and XIV problems, I believe that if FFXIII was using Unreal Engine 3, the development would have been a lot smoother, I mean for crying out loud they made unused assets that could make an entire new game, I'm like WTF.


    The script changes seem like they were caused by the hard release date than simply them not having a clear vision, as the plot leaker, the original one said that Nomura's FFXV Part 1 would have taken till 2017-2018 to release, and the higher up's were staunch about a hard 2016 release date(bad idea)

    Well luckily they got a many business divisions so if they decide let's work on a sequel to FFXV, it won't stop FFXVI from happening, though I question how their vision for XVI would be considering how XV is( it feels like it's trying to be too many things at once, being the jack of all trades master of none, and my fear is they will do it again just for sales doing the popular thing as opposed to doing what their director wants to do), so their library can continue to grow regardless.


    Nier Automata is a little different it doesn't need the sales of XV to be profitable therefore their is more director automony, Nomura/Tabata didn't have that, but I would say that since Nomura would have more clout due to his profile, so he can negotiate better knowing Square they will try going with the biggest and baddest graphics with XVI, try to please everybody for sales, I'm open to being wrong, but I'm not going to be surprised if I'm not
     
  8. Tornak

    Tornak ShinRa SOLDIER

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    What I'm saying is that XV cannot be extrapolated to any other game because that game is so particular that most of its problems will never happen again (unless S-E decides to create a whole new engine, has to make a trilogy nobody wants and has to save a gigantic game). Wada is gone and the new CEO seems to be competent enough to save the ship. You can be pessimistic, but fuck no, XV's problems shouldn't be used in an argument as it's a vastly different situation. Remember, this whole thing is a legacy (Wada has four big messes in terms of development: XII, XIII, XIV and Versus/XV; Matsuda has been able to make his company release games at a steady pace and with more than good reception).

    And my point is that if you ditch stupid, fan-wanking sequels that most people don't care about, you can potentially have more Nier-tiered games, with more risks and less pressure. Just because you can't reuse as many assets, it doesn't mean that they're not affordable and that you have to shit out crappy sequels.
     
  9. T.O.T

    T.O.T Clan Centurio Member

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    Sequels for games in the FF mainline series just haven't worked. Sure, many assets end up being reused with probably a lower budget, but the prequels/sequels have never sold as well as the initial number. I doubt that's going to change. It will be interesting seeing how the episodic formula is approached as it very well may become the norm later on if it takes off for the series.
     
  10. AnGer-dono

    AnGer-dono ShinRa SOLDIER

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    The ideal approach would be to have a solid structure in place for the overall narrative first. From there, there are two ways to go - take the road that many multi-part narratives (i.e. The Last Airbender; Lord of the Rings; The Legend of Heroes; .hack) take and have each part be its own story, but with ties to the next game; or do what Life Is Strange and The Wolf Among Us did and end with more snappy cliffhangers leading into the next episode. Now the last approach is something I'd not do if I was in charge of making a three-part (I think three parts are enough) FF game, largely because it lends itself less to a broad RPG epic and more to a crime adventure game IMHO, but if they can make it work, why not.

    Now, let's say they want to take the first approach. The way this is often done (and, FWIW I consider to be optimal) is to have the first part introduce the majority of the key players - not everyone, but at least... say, 2/3 - 3/4 of your essential cast should be set up here. For example, in The Fellowship of the Ring, LotR sets up the nine members of the fellowship and other important characters like Elrond, Saruman and Arwen. The focus on the story here should be on the growth of the group and developing the key parts of your world, the ending should, ideally, recontextualize how the characters interact or set up a much broader conflict - going by my main example, again, the break-up of the fellowship and the resulting question of whether or not the quest to bring peace to Middle Earth will be successful. The second part should start to grow the scale of the conflict and pay off the first minor few setups from the first part, but not resolve the key conflict. There are two ways to end this part of the story - either with a loss (see: Star Wars Episode V; TLA Book Earth) or a minor victory (Two Towers), depending on where you want to go story-wise (personally I'd go with the minor victory, I feel it works better in a video game environment). And the third game should, of course, resolve the final conflict at its conclusion.

    That's just how I'd do it, but it's been done so many times that taking that route and knowing how to make each individual part be satisfying on its own should give a functioning result.
     
  11. Hey Everyone

    Hey Everyone ShinRa SOLDIER

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    Nier is a lot different, it wasn't made at FFXV's budget, a FFXVI will probably have an even bigger budget than FFXV, so that they can do all the things that made FFXV popular and make more money. Nier Automata is a product of being of a more reasonable lower budget, and didn't have a focus on graphics, or sales where as FFXV did, and Square having a much more hands off approach where as Nomura/Tabata it was a lot more intrusive. That's why I don't bother to look at Nier when it comes to hopes about Final Fantasy XVI, because if anything XVI is going to try and replicate what made XV successful to make more sales that means higher budget values, better graphics, more open world, and action combat.

    FFXV's problems aren't just from development, some of them were outright incompetence, and corporate cynicism, and a lack of faith in FFXV in general as well as a needed sales target or else the franchise would be doomed. Nier had absolutely none of this, hell it wasn't even Square who developed it, it was Platinum Games.

    FFXV was supposed to be like the FF7 Remake/Multi-Part, but because they didn't have faith in it, it got condensed into one game, which is probably the cause of some if not most of the storytelling issues.
    They made the game open world, Versus XIII was just open not open world, what would happen if you took a 2D FF game and blew up the world in 3D approach. It was turned into an open world game, because it's popular even though they didn't bother to develop it well.
    Holes were created in the story to be sold as DLC, for whatever asinine reason, they decided to put it in the worst place possible.
    There are also somethings that are simply bad game design(ie. Leviathan) that can't be excused by developmental issues.
    They were forced to use an unfinished engine as opposed to using something that oh I don't know is finished, because they didn't want a Crystal Tools scenario.

    The only real developmental issues Versus XIII ever had were caused by the engine, and the staffing issue.
    XV was supposed to be Versus XIII, then they decided no it should be some sort of a reboot that is just a great game in it's own right or something, but they managed to fail at even that. Developmental issues don't excuse the bad game design in areas, and the bad story design, especially when they had top priority.


    Also all of this was under Matsuda, the only thing Wada was to be blamed for when it comes to Versus XIII's development is making it not happen until they got the next gen consoles and realized oh shit, we can't make this game for PS3 anymore, and was dumb enough to think that XV could come out in 2014.

    Also sequels aren't the cause of riskless games it's budget, and the gamers themselves.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
  12. Hey Everyone

    Hey Everyone ShinRa SOLDIER

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    This should be Final Fantasy XVI

    BD10
    VR ATB RPG
     
  13. llazy77

    llazy77 Sphere Hunter

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    No
     
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  14. AnGer-dono

    AnGer-dono ShinRa SOLDIER

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    VR? Oh fuck no... VR is a shitty fad that should die already. I don't imagine it'd be any fun playing a 60+ hour-long RPG in VR, unless of course, they'd make yet another on-rails nightmare.
     
  15. T.O.T

    T.O.T Clan Centurio Member

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    I think VR won't kick off until it gets to the point where we as the player can feel every action taken and received. Granted, that in itself may upon up a different can of worms.
     
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  16. Nova

    Nova AVALANCHE Warrior

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  17. Lulcielid

    Lulcielid Turk

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  18. Hey Everyone

    Hey Everyone ShinRa SOLDIER

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    [​IMG]

    You know what this is what I want for XVI
     
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