How do you feel about Final Fantasy XV and its marketing reliance on "feedback"?

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LeonBlade

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#41
FF15 is taking feedback from the FF fanbase to influence what actually goes into the game, rather than valuing his integrity and making what he wants to make. He's selling out his creativity in pursuit of making FF15 appeal to as many people as possible, which is impossible given how split the FF fanbase is.
Except that's not what's actually happening. He isn't taking everyone's suggestions and implementing, the fan feedback is actually was a glorified survey. He has already showed he wasn't going to change certain things people have asked for or made mention of due to creative reasons (like Cidney for example).

only a lacklustre and incompetent director would rely heavily on fan feedback to shape their game, and Tabata is indeed a lacklustre and incompetent director.
Again, completely unfounded. The game isn't even heavily relying on fan feedback to begin with.

You are being purposefully intellectually dishonest to strawman your argument against Tabata because he isn't Ito. I don't know why you keep coming back to the forums if you're just going to shitpost every time you make your appearance.
 

Nova_Somnus

Balamb Garden Freshman
#43
I'll assume you are arguing with 1Truth, LeonBlade. He's already been added to my ignore list.
More people need to follow this example. If you don't like a user for whatever reason, don't bother reading their posts. I'm personally not wasting a second reading the posts of people I deem as haters, yet alone replying to them. They're not worth my time.

I should also add that this is not an admittance to being 1Truth, but I've lurked here long enough to see any new user that posts saying they like Ito and want him on FF16 is instantly branded his alt. It seems the regulars here are all FF15 fans and any dissing of FF15 and positive talk about FF16 by Ito is unwelcomed. Therefore, I'm not touching the 1Truth accusations with 10 foot pole. People can think what they want, as I really don't really care. This is the internet and shouldn't be taken so seriously.
 
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Sep 27, 2013
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#44
While I agree with a lot of the positive points brought up, I also think they want to use the feedback part in their final promotion for the game. Saying it was improved and developed in a (sort of) transparent way with user feedback in mind makes them look good, while also giving them some immunity for when this game goes wrong.

It's worth nothing that they've been listening to user feedback much more with FFXIII-2, FFXIV 2.0 and FFXV. I think, unless FFXVI is really far ahead already, they'll go with the same level of open discussions with the next Final Fantasy game. It can do wonders for smaller indie games, so why not something bigger like FF?
 

LeonBlade

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#47
It seems the regulars here are all FF15 fans and any dissing of FF15 and positive talk about FF16 by Ito is unwelcomed.
Except that isn't even in the slightest bit true. You YOURSELF commended the people on the site for voting Ito as who they wanted to direct for FFXVI.

Is it just a coincidence then that the first person you happen to quote in reference to XVI is 1Truth yet conveniently don't include the source for it? It's clear here that you 1Truth and BrokenHearted just are all just FF16 fans any any positive talk about FF15 is unwelcomed.

Am I really to believe that it's all just a big coincidence that someone who is notoriously known for creating alternate accounts on even sites such as Wikipedia isn't involved when the same points are being made even direct quotes and similar accusations based on their personal beliefs and opinions are suddenly 100% wholeheartedly being adopted?

I'm not one to throw around blind accusations at the drop of the hat. Nor am I really one who really wants to start conflict between anyone, let alone on the only forum I go to. However, when I see similar behavior from multiple fresh accounts all spouting the same thing as well as falling in line with the mentality of a particular user here, as I said before, going as far as directly quoting them or claiming they've "read all his posts" (see BrokenHearted), I have to wonder if it is somehow a big coincidence or something that is pretty much obvious to everyone else around me.

Let me reiterate here. No one hates Ito. No one hates Ito. Virtually everyone on this forum has said they wanted him to direct Final Fantasy XVI. I myself want him to direct FFXVI. That has nothing to do with this topic at all however, perhaps in relation to some of your other posts about XVI they would be more relevant to bring up. I simply don't agree with your mentality that bad directors rely on feedback to make games. Yoshida is a perfect example of someone who takes fan feedback to construct a game. Oh, it's an MMO so that matters more? Of course it matters, but why is a single player game somehow exempt from this?

You have the Derplander as your avatar, so I can only assume you enjoy FFXIV (you put it as one of your favorite games) so you undoubtedly know that fan feedback is a good thing. Even if XV isn't an MMO, that doesn't change the fact that even the survey that went out for the Duscae demo provided helpful insight to the player base that would have been completely lost otherwise. The entire difficulty feedback would be lost had it not been for the regional comparison. Data ALONE is enough to justify feedback simply to have it for examination on the target audience.

Only when feedback is taken too literally and completely throwing away your creative visions does it become a problem, and so far that has been inversely the case with the feedback going towards XV. The thing is, this game is a VERY sensitive game for both Square Enix and the fans, they NEED to get it right. Final Fantasy won't go back to what it used to be until FFXVI+ with a normal development cycle with no interruptions and development hells. Understand that this isn't just another game in the series, there's a lot more to it and these things are undeniably useful when making sure they don't make any more mistakes.

Whether or not you agree or if my accusations are correct or not, my underlying arguments and points are not made on WHO you are, but WHAT you are saying. If you disagree with my points you are free to criticise, disagree and debate. No one is censoring you or your opinion. You have just the right to ignore me or accuse me as you wish, unfortunately you have chosen to mainly ignore me despite responding to others who have made reference to my disagreements. I see no reason to even respond to them if you won't respond to me.
 

NemesisSP

ShinRa SOLDIER
Dec 1, 2013
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#48
My honest opinion on this is that Tabata probably was not the right person to leave this game in the sole hands of. I think that he means well and he's very devoted to what he does, but as one person pointed out, I don't think he's a real visionary director like Toriyama or Nomura. For better or worse, they did follow their own creative visions with limited feedback involved.

Now this is not to say that feedback doesn't affect how a game is made. After all, many of the changes made to FFXIII-2 were the direct result of gamer feedback saying things could be improved on. And Nomura has admitted to putting in characters he knows fans want to see. Maleficent and Stitch were featured in Kingdom Hearts II due to a fan poll, after all. But even then, Nomura focused more on his own ideas of what he wanted out of any particular game and that's pretty admirable even if Versus XIII might have been better off if he had reigned himself in a bit.

That's why I think Tabata also had problems with continuing with whatever vision that Nomura and Nojima had. I think he's not truly concerned with the original vision and more with making sure the game is playable and ready for release. But at the same time he's also focusing too much on the gameplay and not on the story. If XV was supposed to be about an Epic tale told across multiple games, it doesn't seem like a good idea to try and condense it. And if he had been open before now about Stella and some of the things like Insomnia and difficult gameplay elements, he might have gotten more feedback concerning that instead with them pointing out that basically uprooting the game yet again is only going to damage the trust of the players more. After all you guys made promises to keep us informed and then went dark for a year before returning with new information and during that time we know that Nomura left the project at some point. We know Stella was to be in the game when he was still on board, but I think when he left to focus on III, Tabata started feeling the pressure and tried to alleviate it by toning the game down more.

This is all speculation and it's probably not true, however, that was what I took out of the use of heavy user feedback. As someone said, lock on functions and faster movement speeds should have been common sense. The characters were far too sluggish to just be meant for a demo and Episode Duscae feels only like a chance to test bed it, instead of showing us more of the rewritten story and get us invested like demos should. Aside from the character dynamics, nothing in this demo feels relevant to the overall game storywise.
 
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#49
instead of showing us more of the rewritten story and get us invested like demos should. Aside from the character dynamics, nothing in this demo feels relevant to the overall game storywise.
A playable demo is for gameplay, not story. If they wanted you to be invested in the story, they'd just market the game with trailers and whatnot, or show off a demo in a presentation.
 

NemesisSP

ShinRa SOLDIER
Dec 1, 2013
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#50
Wrong, a GOOD game demo gives you snippets of the story in order to make sure you're invested in the finished game, usually starting you off at the starting area of the game, that way they have an excuse for why the characters are both low levelled and ill equipped. By throwing us headfirst into a huge gameplay environment where enemies can ambush you if you take too long to beat them with no context as to why they are here, you run the risk of alienating the players. The Duscae demo only sets up why the players are here (their car broke down) and some mentions of the empire. And the area is clearly meant for a bit later in the game, so the enemy attack rates are a bit more elaborate than what a starting field would give out. This has been a common criticism about the gameplay, your characters are much weaker in comparison to the enemies of the game at the point it is meant to take place in. Considering the fact that you fight more effectively once you're past level 15, it's probably a good bet that it was originally meant to be played then rather than starting at the level we do.

Yes, a good game demo can demonstrate why you should buy it when it only shares a bit about the story as we know it. The Final Fantasy VIII demo, while it threw us into the invasion of Dollet without little explanation, offered enough about the game to entice players who played it to buy the full version. However, with a game that has been in development for as long as XV has and if it has indeed changed, it is a good idea to reintroduce the key players of the game via the demo. Having you feel like you've wasted time instead of done something doesn't make it any fun. This is also a double slap in the face because all of the stuff you do is tossed aside by Cindy fixing the car for free after you beat the Behemoth or do something else to raise the money. So basically we played through this demo and achieved nothing from it, which isn't the best way to make players interested.

And yes, this extends to marketing. The marketing has only focused so far on the Duscae region and that's it. We don't have any idea of what Luna's role is at this time, thus one of the big criticisms of her inclusion in the game. People say we didn't know enough about Stella, but we did know what her role was from the beginning and what her dynamic with Noctis would be. Showing Luna instead of Cindy would have been a good way to alleviate the eventual criticism of her not being as good as Stella might have been. Presentation is important and that's doubly true of your demo. You want people to be invested in the game and wasting your time in an area that's beautiful but is pretty irrelevant is not the best way to do so. This goes with my point that apparently has been missed, that the game developers are focusing too much on gameplay but refuse to actually tell us about the story and how it is different and why these changes were necessary. The marketing has failed to do its job as well as the demo itself. I have seen just as many people call off any interest in the game as I have people who got more hyped about it.

And no, my point is not about telling the full story, that's for the game itself. My point was starting us off in an area that introduced the characters we'd play as and show us why we should care enough to play the full game would have been better. Playing the game, I literally learned nothing more that would give me an incentive to keep playing and it is important you give people that incentive. That's what good demos do. Duscae does not and infact has turned off quite a few people because they found it both confusing and boring. The characters aren't incredibly interesting in this either.

And one thing I do want to add, is that this is fair criticism for any demo that relies on feedback. Yes, it is a fully gameplay video with little story to it, but wouldn't you want your feedback to also depend more than just on the gameplay? And that's what Episode Duscae is. It's a three hour gaming test bed instead of a demo that's meant to have us be interested in the game. It was time and energy that should have been spent working on the game itself and the marketing for it. It is, as many have pointed out, completely pointless in the grand scheme of things. And you don't want that in a demo. You want something that people want to keep playing as they wait for the finished game or just want to try it out and see if they like it. Besides, as another person pointed out, test players are already hired to test games and give feedback about the gameplay before they are released.
 
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LeonBlade

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#51
The demo does the things you want it to do which is get people invested in the game. This is a new era, demos don't have to be featured as you are describing. I have played it for 40+ hours so it did its job...