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People keep saying this but I don't see how this is true. LR already suffers from the "sequel" handicap that XIII-2 has. I don't see how LR being the second sequel would make any difference. It's not evident on the title that it's a 2nd sequel, and anyone who knows anything about the game will know that you don't have to play XIII or XIII-2 to understand the story.
And sequels don't always sell less. Bioshock, Elder Scrolls, and Assassins Creed are a few examples.
How do you know this?
I would certainly say it cost more than XIII-2. XIII-2 reused tons of assets while LR was built pretty much ground up.
And sequels don't always sell less. Bioshock, Elder Scrolls, and Assassins Creed are a few examples.
How do you know this?
I would certainly say it cost more than XIII-2. XIII-2 reused tons of assets while LR was built pretty much ground up.
It makes difference because its the last FF title of the generation (the last one always sells less), and it was released too close with the next-gen console release. As far Im concerned you need to understand XIII and XIII-2 to enjoy the story completely.
When it comes to FF, sequels/prequels/spin-offs are doomed to sell less.
When it comes to FF, sequels/prequels/spin-offs are doomed to sell less.
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It's pretty evident now that XIII-2 is a more intensely-produced game, assets-wise, though. LR has a lower per-shot budget on the CG, lower quality and more oft repeated texture work, etcetera. But, how do I know this? Kitase straight up said it - that it's a cheaper production comparatively speaking - in one of the interviews I did with him. LR has changed a lot but in significantly different areas to where FF13-2 did. It's a comparatively cheap production when stood next to FF13, and maybe even next to 13-2, but we'll have to wait for more concrete figures there. Either way, there's more than one way to save money.
The same can be said about the die-hard FFXIII apologists too. Let’s not pretend it’s just the haters here. Both sides are equally bad. I've seen plenty of fans not know how to properly handle the opinions of those who don't like the saga and have lashed out at them. They shouldn't be such assholes to those who don't like the FFXIII series and heavily criticize it. It'd also be great if they stopped whining about the hate and learned how to either properly handle it better or just simply ignore it.
Of course, we're talking about extremists here. There are lovers and haters who are very capable of getting into great discussions with each other. Still friends at the very end.
Of course, we're talking about extremists here. There are lovers and haters who are very capable of getting into great discussions with each other. Still friends at the very end.
Lack of time prevents me from visiting the forum and NC these weeks, but since I got some free time, I read the above comments...
All I have to say is that it's true, haters are really crossing the line most of the times! The majority becomes rude, ironic and simply toxic towards fans who love the saga. On the other hand, some lovers are always being offended by such comments like someone has stolen the game from them.
I have to agree with @Sapientia on this matter though. This "XIII problem" has become really really tiring, that sometimes makes fans who love the series stop visiting forums and sites. I believe it's completely natural, feeling a bit annoyed when people talk to you in a way like they are scolding a kid. And please don't try to deny that. Many FF fans who hate the XIII saga are acting in a bossy way, like there is no tommorow, just because they think they know better and think themselves as the original FF fans. The rest are just simple immature kids who get thrilled when Lightning swings her gunblade. Yeah... Whatever...
Anyways, all I can say is that I'm glad that this forum and NC are the exceptions. Even though some of the Staff members here have expressed their true disaproval towards the saga, which is entirely acceptable and right, they never became rude nor did they try to change fans' minds.
I think @Storm covered everything here... No need to repeat his words.
All I have to say is that it's true, haters are really crossing the line most of the times! The majority becomes rude, ironic and simply toxic towards fans who love the saga. On the other hand, some lovers are always being offended by such comments like someone has stolen the game from them.
I have to agree with @Sapientia on this matter though. This "XIII problem" has become really really tiring, that sometimes makes fans who love the series stop visiting forums and sites. I believe it's completely natural, feeling a bit annoyed when people talk to you in a way like they are scolding a kid. And please don't try to deny that. Many FF fans who hate the XIII saga are acting in a bossy way, like there is no tommorow, just because they think they know better and think themselves as the original FF fans. The rest are just simple immature kids who get thrilled when Lightning swings her gunblade. Yeah... Whatever...
Anyways, all I can say is that I'm glad that this forum and NC are the exceptions. Even though some of the Staff members here have expressed their true disaproval towards the saga, which is entirely acceptable and right, they never became rude nor did they try to change fans' minds.
I think @Storm covered everything here... No need to repeat his words.
Likes:
Chevalier and Sapientia
Oh absolutely, I can't argue with you here with this quoted segment, and particularly so with the incessant drive-bys. It does irk me that somewhere like NeoGAF is predominantly comprised of attempted witticisms and drive-bys that adhere to the same lines and cliches ad nauseum, thereby drowning out the few articulate posters who may not be fans of the games, but at least offer something to the discussion. And at the same time, as you've astutely said, seem to be hurling stones just for the sake of it. It kills the chance for a discussion and it brings the level of discourse down to YouTube levels, which is kind of a poor sight to see.
That being said, I'm not a fan of the labels tossed around. "Haters" just seems to suggest everyone who has ever said anything disapproving about the trilogy, and it implies conflation of the usual drive-by suspects with people who may not be fans, but genuinely have something to say. I've done my fair share of drive-by hating back in the day, I'll have to admit. At some point I came to reassess myself, realising that while my mind about the games can't necessarily be changed, it would be a lot more beneficial to the community if I attempt to actually properly participate in and facilitate discussions. Can someone like me right now be earnestly called a "hater"? Is there any worth in both extremes polarising the whole environment?
Note how I believe the fans are also culpable in their own way, as has been discussed already by others in this thread. I have observed NeoGAF. I have observed Nova Crystallis. I have discovered that a number of fans have an unhealthy need to snap back at the worthless drive-bys, instead of filtering out who is worth talking to, and who isn't in terms of non-fans. Regrettably, that's adding fuel to the fire, and the culmination of that is - from my perspective - a sense of persecution complex that bolsters intense distrust towards any poster or comment expressing any kind of criticism towards the games. I must have said this back in an earlier thread on this site, but this isn't a healthy kind of position to take. Nor are desires for an echo chamber. I do agree that perpetual critiques are going to get irritating at some point, which is why I implore others to be more open and optimism where they can.
Overall, yes, both sides have to get a grip. And this forum can at least optimistically look like a vanguard on the internet to show how posters with opposing opinions can interact with one another in a manner more befitting of the fanbase than your usual YouTube comments section.
Well, there's nothing inherently wrong with this if the topic reaches a point where it does call for it. To do it all the time that it becomes a redundant soapbox may be understandably unnecessary, but let's face it. I'd rather see posts where there has at least been considerable effort put into them than as you've said yourself, one-liners about how Lightning sucks, how she is creepy Toriyama's waifu and how textures look like they're from the PS2 era over and over again.
And the way you've worded that - it definitely sounds like me. I've definitely gone on about how FFXIII vis-a-vís FFXII. Did you have me in mind when you typed that? =P
That being said, I'm not a fan of the labels tossed around. "Haters" just seems to suggest everyone who has ever said anything disapproving about the trilogy, and it implies conflation of the usual drive-by suspects with people who may not be fans, but genuinely have something to say. I've done my fair share of drive-by hating back in the day, I'll have to admit. At some point I came to reassess myself, realising that while my mind about the games can't necessarily be changed, it would be a lot more beneficial to the community if I attempt to actually properly participate in and facilitate discussions. Can someone like me right now be earnestly called a "hater"? Is there any worth in both extremes polarising the whole environment?
Note how I believe the fans are also culpable in their own way, as has been discussed already by others in this thread. I have observed NeoGAF. I have observed Nova Crystallis. I have discovered that a number of fans have an unhealthy need to snap back at the worthless drive-bys, instead of filtering out who is worth talking to, and who isn't in terms of non-fans. Regrettably, that's adding fuel to the fire, and the culmination of that is - from my perspective - a sense of persecution complex that bolsters intense distrust towards any poster or comment expressing any kind of criticism towards the games. I must have said this back in an earlier thread on this site, but this isn't a healthy kind of position to take. Nor are desires for an echo chamber. I do agree that perpetual critiques are going to get irritating at some point, which is why I implore others to be more open and optimism where they can.
Overall, yes, both sides have to get a grip. And this forum can at least optimistically look like a vanguard on the internet to show how posters with opposing opinions can interact with one another in a manner more befitting of the fanbase than your usual YouTube comments section.
Well, there's nothing inherently wrong with this if the topic reaches a point where it does call for it. To do it all the time that it becomes a redundant soapbox may be understandably unnecessary, but let's face it. I'd rather see posts where there has at least been considerable effort put into them than as you've said yourself, one-liners about how Lightning sucks, how she is creepy Toriyama's waifu and how textures look like they're from the PS2 era over and over again.
And the way you've worded that - it definitely sounds like me. I've definitely gone on about how FFXIII vis-a-vís FFXII. Did you have me in mind when you typed that? =P
Likes:
Chevalier and Ehren
Like III and VI? The fact that it's at the end of the consoles life cycle should be a good thing: more user base. Stop making baseless excuses.
How is that a bad thing? The user base for PS360 is more than 70x higher than PS4/XBone.
That doesn't stop it being accessable to newbies. And again: that isn't evident to people who don't know much about the game, which is probably most people buying it.
They are, but what makes LR more handicapped than XIII-2?
How is that a bad thing? The user base for PS360 is more than 70x higher than PS4/XBone.
That doesn't stop it being accessable to newbies. And again: that isn't evident to people who don't know much about the game, which is probably most people buying it.
They are, but what makes LR more handicapped than XIII-2?
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It's definitely not the most recent one, though.
Haters, to my understanding, are people who use their bias and personal opinions to shame others in regards to their enjoyment, and just overall not being realistic with their opinions (hyperbole ect)
Having a differing opinion shouldn't/doesn't make a person a 'hater' if there's no actual hatred or unmistakable bias coming from it.
I posted on Nova Crystallis about the Echo chamber thing and I agree wholeheartedly.
Then again Nova Crystallis has two methods of censoring. One is the downvotes , and the other is moderation.
If members downvoted unintelligent discussion exclusively, it could work fine. But it's usually used as a dislike/like system. And it's dangerously close to the censoring of opinions.
It's not that, no. But rather glorifying a game in a thread about another game with no explanations and lots of superlatives. (Why do you think this is so amazing vs this other thing. Why is it objectively better?, ect)
If I went to McDonald's and said Burger King food was amazing and top notch, a few people would probably look at me funny.
Talking about/comparing the games isn't a crime or something to be looked down upon. But the above can be grating when it's basically all people talk about when the subject arises.
I don't think so. I only know you from here. And it strikes me as though you'd probably find pros and cons in each/give it a fair assessment.
Having a differing opinion shouldn't/doesn't make a person a 'hater' if there's no actual hatred or unmistakable bias coming from it.
I posted on Nova Crystallis about the Echo chamber thing and I agree wholeheartedly.
Then again Nova Crystallis has two methods of censoring. One is the downvotes , and the other is moderation.
If members downvoted unintelligent discussion exclusively, it could work fine. But it's usually used as a dislike/like system. And it's dangerously close to the censoring of opinions.
It's not that, no. But rather glorifying a game in a thread about another game with no explanations and lots of superlatives. (Why do you think this is so amazing vs this other thing. Why is it objectively better?, ect)
If I went to McDonald's and said Burger King food was amazing and top notch, a few people would probably look at me funny.
Talking about/comparing the games isn't a crime or something to be looked down upon. But the above can be grating when it's basically all people talk about when the subject arises.
I don't think so. I only know you from here. And it strikes me as though you'd probably find pros and cons in each/give it a fair assessment.
Likes:
Fleur
The point of the downvote system is, apparently, to knock off-topic posts and spam to the bottom of a discussion thread. Upvotes, on the other hand, are technically meant as "likes". They are supposed to bump up intelligent posts, good points, and well-thought out opinions. The problem is you can't have it both ways, and neither Erren nor myself have been able to get rid of the downvotes function. I have not yet encountered a disqus-based site (other examples are Dulashockers and Siliconera) that does not run into this problem, and it has personally annoyed me for as long as I can remember. I think downvotes are an awful tool used to make people feel unwelcome or like their opinion doesn't matter.
Since you bring it up though, I don't want an echo chamber either and my opinion on the subject is remarkably close to the paragraph Fleur wrote on that. I am quite good friends with Death Penalty, a user present both here and occasionally on Nova Crystallis, who has perfectly valid concerns about the Lightning Saga games and with whom I regularly have debates on the subject. I have my OWN criticisms for both the series and subseries, as a matter of fact. The issue is that intelligent criticisms and constructive critiques such as those levied by Death Penalty or Fleur are relatively rare within the community- the definition of 'hater' you described above is an accurate label for many of the posters on the "dislike" side of the debate. I'm also perfectly cognizant of the fact that some of our more pro-XIII members take their responses too far, and intend to take action against such outbursts in the future. My end goal is and has always been a safe place for fans of the series to talk, without fear of being verbally assaulted for enjoying (or not enjoying) a particular title.
Since you bring it up though, I don't want an echo chamber either and my opinion on the subject is remarkably close to the paragraph Fleur wrote on that. I am quite good friends with Death Penalty, a user present both here and occasionally on Nova Crystallis, who has perfectly valid concerns about the Lightning Saga games and with whom I regularly have debates on the subject. I have my OWN criticisms for both the series and subseries, as a matter of fact. The issue is that intelligent criticisms and constructive critiques such as those levied by Death Penalty or Fleur are relatively rare within the community- the definition of 'hater' you described above is an accurate label for many of the posters on the "dislike" side of the debate. I'm also perfectly cognizant of the fact that some of our more pro-XIII members take their responses too far, and intend to take action against such outbursts in the future. My end goal is and has always been a safe place for fans of the series to talk, without fear of being verbally assaulted for enjoying (or not enjoying) a particular title.
Likes:
Fleur
So when you said the last FF of each generation always sells less you were only basing it off two generations?
But most people are staying. Only 2 million or so people have moved on, that leaves, what, ~77 million?
No I mean why should LR be more handicapped than XIII-2 when they're both sequels. The answer is obvious.
But most people are staying. Only 2 million or so people have moved on, that leaves, what, ~77 million?
No I mean why should LR be more handicapped than XIII-2 when they're both sequels. The answer is obvious.