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Pitioss theories

Discussion in 'Final Fantasy XV - Spoiler Discussion' started by Ikkin, Feb 10, 2017.

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  1. Ikkin

    Ikkin ShinRa SOLDIER

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    Since this got buried in the main discussion thread, I figured it might make sense to continue theorizing about Pitioss here, because it seems like it could be really interesting.

    Here's what's been said so far:

    Any further thoughts?
     
  2. Storm

    Storm AVALANCHE Warrior

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    i always thought the statues alluded to the astrals (at least some of them), and the dungeon is clearly from solheim era, which was the time period when gods were awake and living with humans.

    in a sense pitioss might've been done in honor to the gods, or maybe used as a sort of special trial/competition like the romans did with the colosseum; i could see many ppl trying that mess and risking their lives for the prize, which basically makes you invincible.
     
  3. Ikkin

    Ikkin ShinRa SOLDIER

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    Having experienced the early sections of Pitioss for myself, I'm far more inclined to see it as being designed using theme park ride style storytelling rather than as an interesting backdrop for a competition. The consistent presence of the demon statue (which is easy to associate with Ifrit) definitely seems to suggest that the dungeon's rooms are set up to represent specific scenes in a story about the demon.

    With that said, I'm very curious as to why the Reddit theory linked the bearded statue in the entrance room to Titan rather than Ramuh. Apart from the fact that there's no reason to think Titan would be depicted with a beard, the statue in question has a very Zeus-like look and is posed as if he's throwing a lightning bolt. The destruction of the figure could even explain why Ramuh never appears in corporeal form (i.e. his physical body, like Shiva and Ifrit's, had already been destroyed), with the decapitated head possibly connecting to that weird concept of Ramuh as nothing but a head in the clouds.

    EDIT: I also think it's worth considering the color of the switches when thinking about what they could represent. From what I've played, "white switch = external action, orange switch = demon's action" makes a ton of sense, with the puzzles I've completed so far going as follows:

    1. White switch. Lights up at night; provides access to the area through descent by elevator. Possible interpretation: Someone other than the Demon/Ifrit (most likely the Goddess) descends into the Underworld.
    2. White switch on top of the cage. Opens the cage around the Demon. Possible interpretation: the Demon/Ifrit is freed through outside intervention.
    3. White switch that activates orange switch. Combination of the two launches the ball, which comes to rest in front of the demon. Possible interpretation: the Demon/Ifrit notices a passing Meteor, and decides to use it.
    4. Orange switch accessed by jumping from the Demon to the ball. Destroys the Bearded God and opens the way to a second orange switch, which launches another ball to break down the door. Possible interpretation: The Demon/Ifrit uses the Meteor to break down the door to the Underworld. In order to do this, he must destroy the Bearded God/Ramuh's corporeal form.
    5. White switch that makes a giant globe spin, followed by orange switch triggered by jumping from the top of the globe into a narrow passageway behind the ball. Launches the ball so it can be used to proceed further. Possible interpretation: The deaths caused by the Meteor and the plague it spread started the process by which souls were granted entry into the Underworld. The Demon/Ifrit jumped into the opened gate just behind those souls and followed them as they passed into the darkness.
    6. Orange switch in front of the red Demon statue holding the Prawn Antennae. Provides access to the first door in the hallway of doors. Possible interpretation: The Demon/Ifrit fought the gateway guardian and jumped into the chaotic and fiery first level of the Underworld.

    Other things to think about: the blue dragonfly-like constructs that appear in the main hall and the globe room (do they represent souls?) and the purple warp effects that occur when Noct is brought back to a checkpoint (summon magic or corrupted Lucian magic?).
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
  4. Ikkin

    Ikkin ShinRa SOLDIER

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    I've gotten past the section with the Goddess statue now, so I think my interpretation of the dungeon is nearing completion. I'll go back and consider item placement once I complete the rest of the dungeon, but for now...

    I don't think Pitioss is intended to follow an unbroken narrative. It's more like stained glass windows or the Stations of the Cross -- its rooms are designed to convey specific scenes, with the elements included in those scenes being conveyed through the juxtaposition of disparate elements. As such, my suspicion is that, in-universe, Pitioss was intended to function as a temple.

    With that in mind, I'll break down the narrative as I understand it on a scene-by-scene basis. (This will include some references to puzzle solutions, in case anyone wants to avoid those.)

    Introduction:

    In order to access the Entry Hall, you must run underneath spiked blocks. Given the way they're used throughout the dungeon, I believe that the use of spikes in Pitioss represents the presence of death/the dead. Before even accessing the Entry Hall, you must enter the realm of the dead.

    Ifrit makes a pyre on Ravatough to burn the body of the fallen Goddess and burns alongside her.

    Scene I -- Entry Hall (Demon Caged) and Purgatory

    The initial setup of the Entry Hall is as such: The Demon is surrounded by a cage. The Bearded God holds a platform like a lightning bolt. The path is barred by moving walls and a demon face barrier.

    Once you make your way past these obstacles, your find yourself in a room with three closed doors, which I will henceforth call Purgatory. One of the doors can be opened already, but it leads nowhere. There is a path filled with spiked blocks that you can use to reach the top of the Demon's cage and hit a white switch to free him.

    I believe that the caged Demon represents Ifrit after "dying," the Bearded God represents Ramuh, the moving walls represent chaos (in a FNC sense), and the Purgatory room represents the place where immortal beings who "died" appear before being called back to the Mortal Realm.

    In death, Ifrit attempts to access the Underworld, but finds the way barred and returns to life.

    Scene II -- Entry Hall (Demon Uncaged)

    Now that the cage around the Demon has been lifted, a giant ball can be triggered (using a combination of white and orange switches) to launch. It comes to rest in front of the Demon. You must jump from the Demon's head to this ball to trigger the destruction of the Bearded God using an orange switch, which provides access to another orange switch that summons a giant ball to break down the door into the next area.

    I believe that the giant ball is a reference to the Meteor containing the Starscourge that Ifrit used to destroy the civilization of Solheim.

    Having returned to life, Ifrit notices a Meteor and decides to use it to open the way to the Underworld by devastating the human population with the Starscourge. Ramuh tries to prevent Ifrit from doing this, but his corporeal form is destroyed. Ifrit successfully summons the Meteor and opens a path to the Underworld.

    Scene III -- The Hidden Gate

    In the next area, you must jump into a massive stationary globe and past spikes to hit a white switch to make the globe spin, then make your way on top of the globe to jump down into a narrow opening surrounded by spikes to land behind a giant ball to launch it in order to progress. From the top of the globe, you can see another Demon statue, which is gazing at the distant Goddess statue.

    I believe that moving equipment without spikes represents chaos and the narrow opening containing the orange switch represents the Hidden Gate to the Underworld. As before, the giant ball represents the Meteor.

    Ifrit navigates the chaos surrounding the Hidden Gate and leaps through, in hopes of reaching the Goddess. He is surrounded by the dead on all sides but is able to find his way through by following in the wake of the souls lost to his Meteor.

    Scene IV -- The River of Souls

    This area contains a statue of a Demon lit in red and five doors, four of which I believe are intended to comprise a single scene. The Demon holds a Prawn Antennae in his hand. The first door contains a number of spiked blocks that move up and down and must be escaped by jumping from above the door after hitting an orange switch to open the next door. The second and third doors function as a set. The second door contains a number of spinning spiked pillars that must be avoided and then jumped on to reach a higher level, which provides access to the area behind the third door without opening it; the third door contains a number of non-spiked wheel mechanisms that must be navigated to reach the orange switch and blast open the door to both free yourself and access the fourth door. The fourth door requires you to stand on platforms moving through the room while avoiding spiked walls.

    I believe that the Demon statue and the first four doors are intended to reflect a dangerous aquatic journey into the depths of the Underworld. The first room reflects the feeling of being pushed up and pulled down by a current of the dead before finally surfacing, the second room reflects being spun around in a whirlpool of souls, the third reflects being caught in chaotic tides, and the fourth reflects avoiding the dead while being carried along on a current. The Prawn Antennae continues the aquatic symbolism.

    Now in the Underworld proper, Ifrit is caught in the River of Souls and must fight to keep from being dragged under while surrounded by chaos and the souls of the dead.

    Scene V -- Soul Harvest

    This area contains a massive piece of machinery consisting of an enormous skull and rows of rotating spikes (which I will henceforth call the Skull Wall). It's sort of reminiscent of a massive piece of agricultural equipment, and the skull evokes the concept of the Grim Reaper. You must navigate this piece of equipment in order to reach the orange switch that will open the door and provide access to the wheel mechanism behind it. At one point, you see a hand sticking out of the wall menacingly.

    I believe the Skull Wall represents whatever beings harvest souls in Eos and the hand represents the desperation of those who are subject to the harvest.

    Ifrit makes his way through an area where the souls of the dead are harvested, avoiding the harvesters while using their infrastructure to reach the chaos beyond.

    Scene VI -- Goddess in Chaos

    There's a symbolic (if not quite literal) point of no return once you enter this area, and a striking shift in the way the world works. Prior to this section, all of the platforming relied on the same physics engine as the game proper and the camera could be manipulated at will. Here, in contrast, gravity shifts depending on where you stand on a platform, the camera switches to 45-degree angles, some sections must be played as a 2.5D platformer, and large portions of the level geometry spin as you move through it. Notably, while machinery is common, there are no spikes to be found anywhere.

    The point of this section is to work your way towards the statue of the Goddess, who is shrouded in darkness. Once you reach her, you must jump on her chest, which pushes her back into a prone position and allows you to reach both the Genji Gloves at her navel and the rod above her head leading you to the next area.

    I believe that this section couldn't have been a more blatant Fabula Nova Crystallis reference if it wrote them in red paint on the body of the Goddess statue. In FNC, when Etro reaches the Underworld, she finds Muin being consumed by chaos. FFXIII-2 continues this imagery by having Lightning appear before Etro just as Etro's about to be consumed by chaos herself. The Genji Gloves at the Goddess statue's navel is subject to further interpretation, but I think it could reflect the Goddess passing the Power of Kings (which lacks specific attribution in supplemental materials and could be referenced by the Goddess statue holding a sword) to mankind through Ardyn, since the character for whom the Tale of Genji was named was born to royalty but cut out of the royal line.

    Ifrit navigates the chaos at the heart of the Underworld, but as soon as he approaches the Goddess, she is consumed by chaos and he falls into despair.

    Scene VII -- Escape from the Underworld

    The chaotic architecture of the last section continues, but now it's streaked with black markings reminiscent of the black blood associated with people infected with the Starscourge. There's an obvious path to take, but all of the jumps you need to take feel really risky since there's almost nothing below you but darkness. At one point, there's a Demon statue, but his features are shriveled. Most of the items you find are connected with either healing or time. Eventually, you find a staircase to ascend which leads you to a short drop to a white switch; the switch opens the door and leads out to Purgatory.

    I believe that the black markings and the shriveled Demon statue reflect infection by the Starscourge, while the path you must take and the items found on it reflect a panicked escape.

    Coming into contact with the chaos around the Goddess infected Ifrit with the Starscourge. In a panic, he attempts to flee the Underworld, trailing the infection behind him.

    ...and that's as far as I've gotten. Judging by the Reddit post that kicked off this thread, there's probably only one more scene for me to add after completing the remainder of the dungeon, which I doubt will change my feelings about the interpretation I've come up with so far.

    Any thoughts?
     
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  5. Ikkin

    Ikkin ShinRa SOLDIER

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    If anyone's still interested in this, my final analysis of Pitioss can be found here:



    It's... very different than what I thought it was going to be when I last posted here. XD
     
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  6. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    I just finished reading the updated version (posted 16 days ago) of the Pitioss theory on Reddit.

    I skimmed it briefly last time where I only understood Ifrit saving Eos on a surface level, but just finished reading the entire thing in depth and...

    Holy fucking shit that was an amazing read and epic story!

    It makes so much sense and.. I wouldn't be surprised if this turned out mostly accurate (or at least I'm hopefully so lol)

    Some of the comments in the Reddit post said that in an ATR done by Tabata awhile back, he likened the lore for FFXV to be similar to a Japanese tragedy, which is similar to the theory presented by Perona.

    Yknow... this just makes me more excited to play Episode Gladio. Before I didn't really care all that much for it. If that DLC covers this mythos and manages to confirm some of this theory, I think theorists would be going crazy over this.


    Edit: when I skimmed this theory awhile back, I had a very general gist of what it was about. I seriously wish I read it more carefully back then but oh well.

    My only thought about it is this: SE already finished writing the lore, they've finished writing Ardyn's story as well, they've most likely finished the entire scenario regarding Niflheim.

    How are they going to tell this entire story in a way that does it justice? We're gonna have to wait until episode Gladio comes out to see what the DLC experience will be like, but I wonder will DLC episodes be enough to convey the true depth of this amazing story?


    Also Ray Chase playing FFXV and keeping up to date on any theories and whatnot regarding the game is pretty damn cool of him. He truly is a FF fan xD
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
  7. Ikkin

    Ikkin ShinRa SOLDIER

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    Given the way that the Gladio DLC is being positioned -- namely, as taking place in the aftermath of the Ravus encounter and centering on Gladio's desire to gain strength -- I feel like the chances of it focusing very heavily on lore is vanishingly slim. There's a certain recurring FF villain who's supposedly the boss who wouldn't really fit an afterlife lore scenario, either.

    Have you seen my video? I've got an alternate take on Pitioss linking its imagery to Versus XIII and speculating about what that could have meant for the Lucis Caelum line.
     
  8. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    Fair point.

    We shall have to wait and see what specific surprises the DLC has in store for us then.

    Not yet but I'll check it out when I'm free. Quite curious to look into more info and opinions on the subject now that I've finally "caught up" xD

    On an interesting note, when you do the tour mission for Gladio/Iris near the Ravatogh campsite, it's to pick a flower that only blooms at dawn.

    A very subtle hint towards Eos, Goddess of the Dawn?
    Bursting into "life" at dawn but then going back to sleep afterwards only to reawaken the next morning?
     
  9. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    Here is an update by perona77 - the husband and wife team who originally posted the Pitioss Revelations theory.

    This time it's about Eos: Revelations.

    Thought it would be best to share it here in the spoiler section for free discussion.

    There's also heavy emphasis on Eos and the Astrals so it is related to the Pitioss theory in a way.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXV/comments/5w8ws8/eos_revelations/


    P.S. Have skimmed it briefly but will read in detail later. Enjoy the read everyone :)

    It's a bit out there compared to the Pitioss theory but still enjoyable nonetheless
     
  10. Storm

    Storm AVALANCHE Warrior

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  11. Ikkin

    Ikkin ShinRa SOLDIER

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  12. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    Seconded. We see a woman with that same pose being carried by a demon in the Amano artwork too, and of course, according to the Pitioss theory, that would be Ifrit carrying Eos.

    There's so much going on in that artwork. We see so many different summons and monsters, including Odin, but they've no mention at all in the game.

    I like to think that they've already got this huge, epic story already written but ...they just couldn't tell it to us... yet?


    Edit: Does anyone know who that picture of that woman with the panther is? I'm sure she is supposed to represent some deity or goddess but just don't know who.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
  13. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    So the latest Gladio DLC loading screen kinda debunked a bit of the Pitioss theory.

    According to the original theory proposed by perona77, Ifrit carried Eos' body to Ravatogh and they both died there,with their corpses forming the Rock of Ravatogh.

    However, if you take a look at this loading screen lore, it says only Ifrit died there after having fought Bahamut.

    http://i.imgur.com/ekPn0dz.png

    perona77 did get the part about Ifrit dying on the Rock of Ravatogh right though. The "horn" design is a giveaway of that, as well as that screenshot saying so.

    Just no Eos wing justification...yet?
     
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  14. SonOfEtro

    SonOfEtro ShinRa SOLDIER

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    I like this version. The one-winged "goddess" figure was never adequately explained. I still don't think the Oracle could purely fill that role, and in pre-release material the Astrals weren't specifically called gods.

    Oh yes, a little added detail. "Shigai" also the term used for "Cie'th" in the Japanese versions of the other FNC titles.
    Yeah, I never believed that part. But that it's where Ifrit fell makes more sense. Still don't know why Ifrit betrayed them. Please, SQEX, give us something to explain more of the lore...
     
  15. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    I would love to see a short explanation scene of Bahamut and Ifrit going at it so hard that they break the ground, which causes the Taelap Crag, and Ifrit throwing meteors at the Earth.

    Based on what we saw when we were fighting Ifrit as Noctis, shit's bound to be epic.

    Anyway, getting back on topic, I do think that the explanation for Pitioss theory does make sense, with a few misses here and there. Overall, it's a pretty good explanation as far as fan theories go.
     
  16. Storm

    Storm AVALANCHE Warrior

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    [​IMG]

    new interesting piece of lore from episode gladiolus
     
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  17. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

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    I already posted that earlier via an imgur link :D

    I think we can expect more of these kinda lore drops in the upcoming DLC episodes. Would be great if we get an actual scenario dedicated to it though.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
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  18. Storm

    Storm AVALANCHE Warrior

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    i like the fact the ifrit - ravatogh relation is official, it shows fan speculation can get things right sometimes.
     
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  19. Storm

    Storm AVALANCHE Warrior

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    my take is that is something as simple as envy or dissaproval of the way humans are (maybe he was the least adored deity of the hexatheon); or he simply wanted to be the only ruler, the only god.

    might be the people of solheim tricked him and tried to steal something from him, and he got pissed (they tried to kill him to get unlimited fire, who knows lol).
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  20. SonOfEtro

    SonOfEtro ShinRa SOLDIER

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    If you want a reason for Ifrit to attack, maybe humans were getting too socially, magically or technologically advanced for the Astrals to control. I can just hear several Astrals thinking these "puny, insignificant things" don't have the right to be like this, them being nothing compared to divine beings. Maybe Ifrit suggested wiping them out (with the Starscourge, one assumes), but was outvoted by the rest of the Six in favor of something less drastic and more manipulative. If Ifrit acted against a common consensus, that would be reason for the other Astrals to attack, if only to save their own control and later paint Ifrit as a betrayer.

    But back to Pitioss, if Ifrit were using a human as a host to bring the Starscourge against the wishes of the Six, that would be in keeping with @Ikkin's theory, and even explain why Ramuh would try to stop Ifrit. As to the Goddess figure, she would be the one to bless this human and/or their lineage with the ability to stop Ifrit's scheme from destroying humanity.
     
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