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SE Business Divisions / FF16 Ito Debate goes here & nowhere else

Discussion in 'Final Fantasy Discussion' started by 1Truth2Lies, Nov 11, 2014.

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  1. 1Truth2Lies

    1Truth2Lies PSICOM Soldier

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    I may not be as big a Motomu Toriyama fan as you are, but I still think the man is competent. I will never agree or participate in any hate he gets. I loved what he did on FFVII. If he hadn't made the Midgar section so compelling, myself and many other people would have given up on the game before the party reaches the World Map for the first time. I loved the build up of romance between Cloud and Aerith over the course of disc 1, as that really did make her death have a bigger impact by the end of the disc. The man is good at slowly evolving romance over the course of a game. He again did this on FFX, which many people love. FFVIII had no Toriyama involved, which is why the love story is so inferior to Cloud/Aerith and Tidus/Yuna. I really don't get the hate the man gets. Ignorant people are just jumping on his hate bandwagon without finding out what the man has actually done.

    So he fucked up on FFXIII and made the game too linear? Well, FFX was even more linear than FFXIII. Nobody had a problem with that. Furthermore, it wasn't even Toriyama that decided on the linearity. That decision came from Kitase, who was basing it on the Interactive Movie blueprint he created for FFX. On the contrary, when Toriyama is both directing a game and in charge of the narrative structure, he prefers to go for a more open and mission-based method. FFX-2, FFXII RW, Blood of Bahamut FFXIII-2, and LRFFXIII all had this.

    Also, it's ironic how people piss and shit on Toriyama's career and leave Nomura unscathed, especially when Nomura conceived and creatively produced the worst Final Fantasy in history. Nowhere in Toriyama's track record is a game that abysmal.

    It's as I've said. People are just jumping on the Toriyama hate bandwagon without doing their research on the man's contributions to the FF series over the years.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
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  2. Sora96

    Sora96 Sphere Hunter

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    Exactly, and I love that.

    And yeah, in regards to Nomura you've even got Tabata literally saying "Versus XIII is a game that never really took shape" and yet people got soooo excited about him directing VII Remake. Lol. And for me personally, I like Tabata I quite enjoyed Type-0 HD and The 3rd Birthday, playing Crisis Core soon. And I've enjoyed the core KH games but that's where Nomura should stick his directing, maybe then KH3 would have more than one proper trailer since it started development in 2010. Lol.
     
  3. APZonerunner

    APZonerunner Network Boss-man Staff Member Administrator Site Staff UFFSite Veteran

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    Just straight up deleting posts about 'beefs' - from both sides - for the record. Keep it on topic to the debate at hand or don't post, ta. There's good debates to be had here, making it personal isn't helping it tho.
     
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  4. 1Truth2Lies

    1Truth2Lies PSICOM Soldier

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    With Tabata confirming that FFXV will release in 2016, it leaves the door open for FFXVI to be announced in 2017. Anybody that has been paying attention to my "Hiroyuki Ito directing FFXVI" theory, will know I've been saying 2017 is the most likely year for the announcement. That's the year of Final Fantasy 30th Anniversary.

    If SQEX plan to announce FFXVI in 2017, I expect them to also show footage of the title, not just say they're making it. FFXV will already be released worldwide by then, so they'll need to show something substantial to ensure there's no gap in people's anticipation for the next mainline FF. Also, I believe they'll want a really heavy-hitting announcement to celebrate the Final Fantasy 30th Anniversary. That being the case, the game will have to be pretty far along for any footage to be shown. This gives further weight to Hiroyuki Ito working on the game, as he's the only prolific FF director not attached to any announced AAA projects right now, and has not been for a good few years.

    Yosuke Matsuda, SQEX President, said at E3 2015 that despite FFVII Remake being announced, the company is still primarily focused on continually evolving mainline Final Fantasy with new installments, with the FFVII Remake only being a special exception. This makes it apparent that FFXVI is also in development, as FFVII Remake is not internally seen as the next big mainline title to follow FFXV.

    http://venturebeat.com/2015/06/17/s...tomb-raider-and-making-global-games/view-all/

    Matsuda's words corroborate with Hiroyuki Ito working on FFXVI. Ito has been working on his next project since as far back as 2010, yet this project has still not been publicly announced. On the other hand, FFVII Remake only started in 2014 and was announced in 2015. Ito's title, which is being designed as the next mainline Final Fantasy to follow FFXV, is therefore being given a significantly longer development time than the FFVII Remake.

    Also, with Tabata confirming that FFVII Remake is not using Luminous Studio, some people were happy with the news, as to them it meant the game would potentially be made quicker. However, I saw something else with this announcement. Back at E3 2012, when Luminous Studio was first announced, Yoichi Wada (SQEX President at the time) said it would be used for future, mainline Final Fantasy games. Current SQEX President Yosuke Matsuda's words in the quote above clarify that future, mainline Final Fantasy games do not include remakes of past titles, but instead refers to brand new titles. This is likely one of the reasons why FFVII Remake does not require use of Luminous Studio. Also, to add to this, back in December 2014, Akira Iwata (Lead Artist for Luminous Studio) said that FFXV was not the only game in development using the engine. If both the FFVII Remake and KHIII aren't using Luminous Studio, what other game is? There must be another AAA Final Fantasy game being worked on behind closed doors.

    http://sqex.info/ffxv-luminous-studios-developer-interviews-part-1/

    At this point, there's enough evidence to support both FFXVI existing and Hiroyuki Ito being the game's director. Fore me, it's now just a waiting game for the official announcement in 2017. Until that day comes, I'll continue to collect evidence that supports FFXVI being Hiroyuki Ito's return to the limelight. However, I'm no longer collecting this evidence to convince myself and others. The writing is on the wall at this point: FFXVI is already in dev and Ito is working on it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2015
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  5. LeonBlade

    LeonBlade Forest Owl Staff Member Moderator Site Staff

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    This is what I was thinking about. People were confused by FFVII Remake not using Luminous and saying that Luminous is just going to be the next Crystal Tools, but I completely disagree. Luminous is still being worked on and we won't see another game using it until XV comes out and the engine is actually done. We know that a branch of Luminous Engine was used in XIV and that Luminous Engine is being developed along side of XV and not integrated with the actual game's engine. Simply put, this means that the engine will be able to be used on other projects without needing to pull the code from XV meaning that current projects can take advantage of the engine right now as it's being developed.

    I'd like to believe that Luminous Engine would be used on XVI as there isn't anything that is proving it wouldn't be. Some people have voiced opinions saying that SE would be leaning towards third party engines such as Unreal for future titles, but I completely disagree. SE are too prideful to not use their own engine on their mainline series Final Fantasy. Kingdom Hearts is in a different position as it needs to be hurried along in development. On top of this, Kingdom Hearts has its own unique style and is led by a division that has no idea how to use Luminous. They needed to make the switch so that they could get the game off the ground and under way.

    It's very likely that anyone who worked from the XII staff on XIV early on in development that may have some experience with Luminous from the branch used in XIV would have some idea of the codebase. On top of that, being that XVI is likely in the works and would be in secret, the team can study the engine's workings and learn how to use it now over time without worrying about anything as it hasn't been formally announced yet.

    So, in short, with XVI not being announced to the public, and the Luminous Engine being developed along side XV and not integrated with it, the Luminous Engine has the potential to be used on future titles. It seems like FFXVI could very well be using Luminous Engine for development.
     
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  6. Sora96

    Sora96 Sphere Hunter

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    In regards to KH3, it's also almost certain they're working with another developer. Likely a developer in India. Plus you've got Disney, and if I'm not mistaken any games they've "made" used Unreal Engine.
     
  7. 1Truth2Lies

    1Truth2Lies PSICOM Soldier

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    Agreed.

    Also, as you've correctly stated, SQEX are way too prideful to not develop FFXVI on their own in-house engine, especially when you consider how much money, staff, and resources they are still pumping into it till this day. Luminous Studio definitely has other games coming besides FFXV, and I'm certain FFXVI is one of them.

    The best thing about FFXV being the first to use the engine is that FFXVI will not have to worry too much about the engine itself. Instead, it can primarily focus on the game. FFXV's final release will use Luminous Studio 2.0, so when FFXVI fully ramps up in production, it will be using Luminous Studio 2.0 as the basis. This will mean development will go much quicker and smoother than FFXV. In the same 4 years that FFXV was being developed alongside the engine and therefore basically being used as testing ground, FFXVI can exclusively focus on the game, not the engine. Things like art direction, game design, storytelling, side-quests, etc, will all be at the forefront of FFXVI's development, not the engine itself. This will be the polar opposite to how FFXV was developed, as it had to wait for parts of the engine to be complete during development.

    Don't get me wrong, the above paragraph is not an attack on FFXV. After all, there's many games that are developed alongside engines and turn out amazing, such as Crysis and Gears of War. However, for FFXVI, the engine being finished means that in the same 4 years FFXV took to develop (Tabata rebooted it in 2012 and it's releasing in 2016), FFXVI will be able to do so much more in that time due to all engine assets and features being complete. The 4 years can mainly focus on world scale, art direction, game design, battle system, storytelling, cutscenes, side-quests, mini-games, etc. These are all things which are important to making a great Final Fantasy game.
     
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  8. Sora96

    Sora96 Sphere Hunter

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    Speaking of XVI not having to worry about the engine and such, remind's me a lot of Crystal Tools. Come XIII-2 and in particular Lightning Returns, they were also to upgrade it as they saw fit. Eg. open world.
     
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  9. 1Truth2Lies

    1Truth2Lies PSICOM Soldier

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    Another example is the cutscene engine of FFX and field engine of FFXI both being used in FFXII. They were both improved upon. The cutscene animation in FFXII is so good, as it was building off what FFX already created, rather than making it all from scratch. The same is true for the open world in FFXII, which was building off parts of the FFXI engine. According to Ito, the main reason for the long development of FFXII was due to them trying to get the seamless battles and Gambits running on PS2 without it needing the PS2 HDD. Creating those detailed cutscenes and the massive open world doesn't appear to be the reason for the long development time. Indeed, FFXII was originally supposed to release in Summer 2004, which would have been 3 and half years after it started development in December 2000.

    FFXVI can follow the same approach as FFXII did. It can build off the Luminous Studio assets and features that were created alongside FFXV. It can even use parts of FFXIV. Matter of fact, I want it to use parts of FFXIV. I don't mean graphics or engine related parts, but instead it should wholesale copy the game's fantastic UI and imitate it's optional gameplay content: Monster Hunts (taken from FFXII, anyway), Quests, Duties, Trials, Raids, Guildhests, Treasure Hunting, Player Housing, Customizable Personal Chocobo, Crafting, Gathering, Job System, etc. All that shit should be included in FFXVI and rendered with the realistic Luminous Studio. The FFXII team help make FFXIV ARR, anyway, so I see no harm in them imitating the content and putting it into FFXVI. That said, having that much optional content in FFXVI would be severe overkill. Such a game would allow Final Fantasy to finally reclaim the RPG crown from the leading WRPGs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2015
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  10. LeonBlade

    LeonBlade Forest Owl Staff Member Moderator Site Staff

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    Yeah, I completely understood what you mean. I agree wholeheartedly, even if you ignore the development hell XV is/was in, XVI would still be developed a lot more smoothly and as a result will have much better marketing as well. It's a big chain reaction, as much as I'm looking forward to XV, I'm really looking forward beyond XV. XII was an amazing game and I'd love to see the evolution of it.
     
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  11. 1Truth2Lies

    1Truth2Lies PSICOM Soldier

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    Assuming FFXVI has been in development since at least 2010 (that's when it was first mentioned that Ito was busy with his own project), that would also give it a lengthy development period. Tabata rebooted VersusXIII into FFXV in 2012, but was still basing it off the story, characters, and world created by Nomura and Nojima for VersusXIII. Even then, he's made some changes to that original vision. If FFXVI has been worked on since 2010, the development phase will be much longer than FFXV. From 2010 until 2017 (which is when FFXVI will likely be announced for FF 30th Anniversary) is 7 years. Then, assuming it releases in 2019, that's 9 years in development. To add to this, there was no reboot or change of director and team like FFXV suffered. FFXVI would have the longest development period under the same director and team in Square Enix history.

    With FFXVI having a development period that long and a prolific director at the helm, there's no excuse for the game not becoming the JRPG to reclaim the RPG crown from WRPGs. Not saying FFXV won't achieve that feat, but it was a game originally conceived in 2005, when JRPGs still had the crown. Times have changed, so on a conceptual level, FFXVI will have to do a lot more. Furthermore, the FFXII staff are fucking fantastic, my fanboyism aside. What they did with FFXIV ARR (under Naoki Yoshida's direction) is a landmark achievement for gaming. That team in particular is grossly underrated. For me personally, they are the team that can put mainline FF back on the map. Not dissing FFXV, but even Yoshi-P has said he doesn't think FFXV will be enough to make FF great again.

    I think Square Enix management have a plan here, and it's all falling into place. There was a time when I was upset FFXV was simply VersusXIII renamed, but now I'm grateful. Having that game released as a mainline game allows FFXVI to have much more time in the oven and not be used as a testing ground for Luminous Studio. After all, SQEX management no longer fuck around with release dates. Tabata himself has said that the very moment he took over VersusXIII and it was rebooted into FFXV, the release year was set by management. The game isn't ready by then? Tough. The shit is being released. The executives don't fuck around anymore. In that sense, VersusXIII becoming FFXV was a good decision, as that buys FFXVI time. I'm sure FFXVI also has its release date already set (just like it being announced during FF 30th Anniversary), but FFXV existing and being used as a testing ground for Luminous Studio has allowed it to have a release year much further down the line and also have most of its development time spent on the game itself, rather than the engine.
     
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  12. 1Truth2Lies

    1Truth2Lies PSICOM Soldier

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    Just to finally seal the door on the whole "Naoki Yoshida could be directing FFXVI alongside FFXIV" argument. There was a comment at gamescom 2015 where he said his role as Producer/Director of FFXIV meant he was so busy that he can only take 3 days holiday a year. If he's that invested in the game, he really can't direct anything else right now, not even a smaller project for phones.

    http://www.novacrystallis.com/2015/08/gc-2015-final-fantasy-xiv-interview-with-naoki-yoshida/

    So that finally shuts the door on that. If Naoki Yoshida is going to make another mainline FF, it's not going to be anytime soon. Not with how busy he is with FFXIV.

    Special shout-out to @Sora96 for pointing out this quote to me when this interview was first published (and the whole "Naoki Yoshida directing FFXVI" debate was happening in this thread). I've decided to add it to this thread for closure on the subject and for people that may have missed it. It's especially relevant for those that doubt how invested Yoshida is in FFXIV and believe he can direct FFXVI on the side.
     
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  13. LeonBlade

    LeonBlade Forest Owl Staff Member Moderator Site Staff

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    Even entertaining the idea of it being a "possibility" is just pointless. It's obvious he isn't working on it, and this further proves it as you pointed out.

    Considering XVI (what would have been XV prior) has likely been in some form of development for years now, unless it's someone no one expects, it's going to be Ito. It's not going to be Tabata, Nomura, Yoshida or Toriyama, these are all the heavy hitters. There are a few other directors that have worked on the Tactics titles etc. You have Kitase, but he's taken the roll as Producer lately including the FFVII Remake and hasn't directed a game in quite some time.

    The only heavy hitting player left is Ito... it's all but confirmed at this point. Realistically speaking, with all the evidence from past interviews about what Ito's been doing and everyone already being consumed in various projects, there's really no one else it could be.

    When do you expect XVI to be announced? I'd like to say E3 next year along side of the last big trailer release for XV closing out until it's release to announce that XVI is under development.
     
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  14. Sora96

    Sora96 Sphere Hunter

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    While I am also of the belief Ito has been helming XVI for years aka originally XV, whatever Toriyama's working on is NDA as well.
     
  15. LeonBlade

    LeonBlade Forest Owl Staff Member Moderator Site Staff

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    Assuming his position or game hasn't been announced already, yeah. I wonder if TGS will give us any information about that.
     
  16. Sora96

    Sora96 Sphere Hunter

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    Out of all announced games, the only one without its core team announced is VII Remake, which yes is the most likely but sadly no confirmation of the core team yet.
     
  17. 1Truth2Lies

    1Truth2Lies PSICOM Soldier

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    People just aimlessly threw out the possibility of Naoki Yoshida working on FFXVI without doing any research on the matter. I say this as a hypocrite, as I know if I had not done all this research on the possibly of Ito directing FFXVI, I'd be just like that. With how amazing ARR turned out, I'd also be wanting Yoshi-P to be at the helm of FFXVI, and crying over how Hiroyuki Ito is ignored. Thankfully, I've amassed enough evidence to solidify my theory and make it no longer wishful thinking.

    Hiroyuki Ito is the only big gun director that is not attached to any AAA projects, and has not been since FFXII IZJS released in 2007. That is extremely telling about his current circumstance. There's people that say this indicates he's been window seated, but evidence I've amassed points against this. Furthermore, Shinji Hashimoto (FF Brand Manager) was coy when I asked him about Ito back in September 2013 during the KH I.5 HD European launch. The same with Yoshinori Kitase (FFXIII Producer) when I asked him at the LR FFXIII European launch in February 2014. Both simply confirmed to me that Ito's working on his own project, but wouldn't elaborate any further. Also, Naoki Yoshida (FFXIV Producer) told @APZonerunner back in 2013 that Ito wasn't working on ARR, but wouldn't disclose what Ito was working on. Why is there so much secrecy regarding Ito? The man must be on something big. We also know that he's been on this project since as far back as 2010. Think about that for a moment: a project that's being given this much dev time (we're in 2015 and it's still unannounced) and occupying a veteran FF staff member to the point that he's too busy to work on any other FF game? It must be a mainline FF.

    Personally, I really hope FFXVI is announced in 2017. That's the Final Fantasy 30th Anniversary, so it would be a great announcement to make for such a monumental occasion. Maybe even invite Sakaguchi to provide a speech! Hiroyuki Ito has mad respect for him, after all. :)

    As you already know, I'm 90% sure the project he was referring to is the FFVII Remake. There's no way he'll allow FFVII to be remade without his involvement, especially when he said a FFVII Remake is was what he wanted to make most after FFXIII.
     
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  18. Sora96

    Sora96 Sphere Hunter

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    90%? I thought you said 80%, something change?

    I can't wait to see the Toriyama haters reactions when his role is announced.

    And while we're on the subject, to be completely honest: I would not want Toriyama involved in XV in any way. The game has been a complete train wreck and it's just sooo soon. In regards to XVI, I also wouldn't want him directing it either, it's time for Ito especially after all the hate he got from XIII. Would be all for Toriyama helping with the scenario or events if Ito asked him though.

    I just hope they announce he's working on it soon or at least another project he's working on. Eg. New Front Mission, XII: RW HD, Lightning Saga.
     
  19. 1Truth2Lies

    1Truth2Lies PSICOM Soldier

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    Yeah, the 10% change comes from Parasite Eve being taken out of the picture. The only other candidates are X-3 and Front Mission, and I don't see him working on any of those over being Event Director for FFVII Remake. The game means too much to him; he even wanted to remake it after he finished FFXIII.

    Toriyama haters are the most ignorant haters in gaming. How can you hate the man responsible for the entire Midgar section before the player reaches the world map for the first time? What about the entire pacing of FFX, right from the beginning until you get the Fahrenheit? Seriously, how? Then you have the fact he was responsible for building the romance of Cloud/Aerith and Tidus/Yuna over the course of their games. The man has done more right than wrong for the FF series. Blows my mind that any FFVII or FFX fan can be a Toriyama hater. But, hey, that's what happens when people just blindly jump on the hate bandwagon.

    Sorry, but I don't want Toriyama on Ito's FFXVI. With regards to the event direction and scenario, it has to be Jun Akiyama and Yasumi Matsuno. I will accept no others. LOL!

    Lastly, even if they don't officially announce he's on FFVII Remake, if no other BD1 project is announced by the end of the year, you'll know the game Toriyama was referring to was FFVII Remake. You just need to be patient. ;)
     
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  20. Sora96

    Sora96 Sphere Hunter

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    Oh, don't worry, I wouldn't expect him to help out with XVI anyway.

    And yeah, in regards to X-3. There's sooo much overlap between VII and X staff that it's hard to see X-3 occurring until some other projects like Mobius, XII HD, Lightning Saga, XV etc are done. At best, I could hope for a movie at the moment.

    And in regards to Front Mission, Toshifumi Nabeshima is the producer and it's more likely in division 3 with Hashimoto as executive producer. So it's hard to see Toriyama directing that, maybe scenario again at best.
     
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