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Oh, man. Haha, The Spirits Within. The movie that caused the almighty Guch to have to leave Square. Seems like such a petty thing now. I guess that movie cost them too much back then, though. I can still remember how hype me and my friends were to see that movie. Didn't really meet expectations. However, I didn't hate it.
I'm still wondering why no one in the Square fanbase blames Sakaguchi for being the responsible of killing the """godly Square Soft""" and creating the """s###tty Square Enix""" and embracing Final Fantasy to """departure from their roots""" with FFVII-FFVIII-FFX by being the producer and allowing their existence, cause literally that guy was the one who started """killing""" everything they loved about FF and Square Soft (disclaimer: my statements here is just my perseption of the broken fanbase opinion.)
Regarding to the last part of my last statement("allowing their existence") thats an assumption of mine due to the fact that Sakaguchi was the president of Square Soft (until either the badly box office performance of the FF movie or Square and Enix merging, i can't remember well) and so i thought that he had the power back then to decide if certain projects would become a thing or not.
Regarding to the last part of my last statement("allowing their existence") thats an assumption of mine due to the fact that Sakaguchi was the president of Square Soft (until either the badly box office performance of the FF movie or Square and Enix merging, i can't remember well) and so i thought that he had the power back then to decide if certain projects would become a thing or not.
The Spirits Within is why he ultimately left, was forced out, however you want to look at it, but it's not what killed Squaresoft and made them merge with Enix. As a matter of fact, Square and Enix were in bed together as early as mid-2000 discussing it. TSW was a pretty big blow but not enough to put them out and they were actually able to recoup a good chunk of the losses over a couple years and a deal with Sony. Whether Sakaguchi-san deviating the series from its roots is a bad thing or not is a matter of preference and perspective. Take myself for example, while I have a huge amount of love for FFVI, VII through X and tactics are my favorite installments in the franchise. So, to me, the offline, numbered installments have only went downhill since he left. It's all about from where you're standing as a fan. They're also the ones that I "grew up" playing, so things of that nature kind of count, too. VII was the game that introduced me to the series, which is undeniably a factor in why it's my favorite, though certainly not the only one.
Fun fact: Square-Enix is worth less right now than they were after The Spirits Within bombed. Or, at least they were last time I was reading about all of this, which was sometime last year iirc. Enix was actually a more wealthy company that Squaresoft back then. They wanted to merge with Squaresoft because they had hardly any ground in NA, and Square's games were really booming over here after FFVII. The benefit Square would receive from merging with Enix would be access to their big bank accounts, heh. When talks of merger started, Squaresoft wasn't in a financially bad spot at all.
Hisashi Suzuki, former Squaresoft Pres and CEO from '95 - '01, never really wanted to Square to merge with Enix, being that Enix was bigger, he and other Sqaure heads were worried about Square becoming the "little guy" in the deal. However, while these talks were going on, Suzuki and Sakaguchi made TSW, which tanked, and actually scared Exix away from merging with Square. This is around the time when Wada was basically handed the responsibility of patching everything up. Actually, I think it has been stated that he was in good relations with Enix and actually offered to be that guy. He's who went back to Enix and got everyone shaking hands again and is the person who ultimately merged Square-Enix.
Also, it should be noted that Sakaguchi was President of Squaresoft LA (later to become Square USA, Inc.) back then. He was in charge of R & D in the US. Before, during and after the merger with Enix, Yoichi Wada was CFO of Square. Additionally, it's worth mentioning that technically Sakaguchi resigned/was fired/whatever from Square 4 months before TSW was even released. Although, I guess they already knew the movie was insanely over budget beforehand.
Anyway, what's really shady (to me) is that in late '01, Hisashi Suzuki actually convinced Sony to buy 18.6% of Square, which amounted to roughly $137 million dollars. Guess how much TSW cost Square overall? That's right, roughly $137 million dollars. So, essentially, Suzuki really went all out to make up for TSW by negotiating with Sony and succeeded. One month later, Suzuki "stepped down" and Wada took his spot and the rest is history.
If I could remember where I read all of this I would link it. It was all much more in-depth than what I've posted here. I mean they really broke it all down with Square financial reports and all kinds of jazz. I'll have to do some digging... I may have it bookmarked on my old laptop.
Edit: So here it is: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=744184?&styleid=40
It was on 'GAF that I originally read it. Check it out, it's very interesting and well put together.
Fun fact: Square-Enix is worth less right now than they were after The Spirits Within bombed. Or, at least they were last time I was reading about all of this, which was sometime last year iirc. Enix was actually a more wealthy company that Squaresoft back then. They wanted to merge with Squaresoft because they had hardly any ground in NA, and Square's games were really booming over here after FFVII. The benefit Square would receive from merging with Enix would be access to their big bank accounts, heh. When talks of merger started, Squaresoft wasn't in a financially bad spot at all.
Hisashi Suzuki, former Squaresoft Pres and CEO from '95 - '01, never really wanted to Square to merge with Enix, being that Enix was bigger, he and other Sqaure heads were worried about Square becoming the "little guy" in the deal. However, while these talks were going on, Suzuki and Sakaguchi made TSW, which tanked, and actually scared Exix away from merging with Square. This is around the time when Wada was basically handed the responsibility of patching everything up. Actually, I think it has been stated that he was in good relations with Enix and actually offered to be that guy. He's who went back to Enix and got everyone shaking hands again and is the person who ultimately merged Square-Enix.
Also, it should be noted that Sakaguchi was President of Squaresoft LA (later to become Square USA, Inc.) back then. He was in charge of R & D in the US. Before, during and after the merger with Enix, Yoichi Wada was CFO of Square. Additionally, it's worth mentioning that technically Sakaguchi resigned/was fired/whatever from Square 4 months before TSW was even released. Although, I guess they already knew the movie was insanely over budget beforehand.
Anyway, what's really shady (to me) is that in late '01, Hisashi Suzuki actually convinced Sony to buy 18.6% of Square, which amounted to roughly $137 million dollars. Guess how much TSW cost Square overall? That's right, roughly $137 million dollars. So, essentially, Suzuki really went all out to make up for TSW by negotiating with Sony and succeeded. One month later, Suzuki "stepped down" and Wada took his spot and the rest is history.
If I could remember where I read all of this I would link it. It was all much more in-depth than what I've posted here. I mean they really broke it all down with Square financial reports and all kinds of jazz. I'll have to do some digging... I may have it bookmarked on my old laptop.
Edit: So here it is: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=744184?&styleid=40
It was on 'GAF that I originally read it. Check it out, it's very interesting and well put together.
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As @soup or man said, Enix was planning to merge with Square (thus creating the current status quo) before the Spirits Within, and Square was having financial issues before it - that was what put Enix off. After TSW bombed, Wada came in, used some very safe tactics (such as direct sequels like FFX-2 and a faster rate of expansion pack releases for FF11) to shore them up financially, while Enix had financial troubles of its own that then worked together to make the merger happen.
Basically, TSW didn't adjust the trajectory of Square much at all in that sense. It was going in the direction it was going anyway. It's a common misconception among a certain portion of the fan base that TSW caused these things, particularly the merge with Enix, however. All TSW did was cause the Square board to lose confidence in Sakaguchi. They then shut him out, and when he left, people like Uematsu also decided to leave the company. Many would argue the departure of many of those key staff post FF10 (and even more post FF12) did steal something of FF's soul, though.
The timeline was this:
Also, Sakaguchi was never Square's President, no. He was Executive Vice President (more a symbolic role) and then later the President of Square USA (which was literally just publishing & the movie operation.) He was Writer/Producer on 7 and 9, and Producer on 8 and Exec Producer on 10! He also had a bit to do with 11 and 12.
I think a lot of people regard 9 (and for some 10) as the end of an era, because FF without Sakaguchi is, definitely, different.
Basically, TSW didn't adjust the trajectory of Square much at all in that sense. It was going in the direction it was going anyway. It's a common misconception among a certain portion of the fan base that TSW caused these things, particularly the merge with Enix, however. All TSW did was cause the Square board to lose confidence in Sakaguchi. They then shut him out, and when he left, people like Uematsu also decided to leave the company. Many would argue the departure of many of those key staff post FF10 (and even more post FF12) did steal something of FF's soul, though.
The timeline was this:
- 1997 - Square Pictures founded. In 97 Square to posted a net loss of $27 million even in the face of this being the launch year of FF7, their biggest game ever. However, Square was keen to try to compete with other such companies and ride on the success of things like Toy Story and FF7's CG sequences.
- 2000 - A merger between Square & Enix is proposed, then falls through. Square's profits were still flat, so Enix pulled out and entered a non-merger partnership with Namco instead. A new Chairman is put in place at Square.
- 2001 - The new Chairman is ejected just 2 months into 2001 - he'd barely had time to get started.
- May 2001 - Sakaguchi clearly smells disaster on the horizon and begins to plan his out. He trademarks the name 'Mistwalker', for himself.
- July 2001 - TSW comes out, is a disaster.
- October 2001 - Square Pictures ceases production after completing its Animatrix short.
- December 2001 - Wada is made president. He immediately sets out to make 'safe' bets including a direct FF sequel for the first time, more FF11 expansions more quickly, cancelling risky games that weren't sure hits, and so on.
- November 2002 - the Enix merger is back on, and happens come March 2003.
Also, Sakaguchi was never Square's President, no. He was Executive Vice President (more a symbolic role) and then later the President of Square USA (which was literally just publishing & the movie operation.) He was Writer/Producer on 7 and 9, and Producer on 8 and Exec Producer on 10! He also had a bit to do with 11 and 12.
I think a lot of people regard 9 (and for some 10) as the end of an era, because FF without Sakaguchi is, definitely, different.
Thanks for the post.
Whether Square is no longer making risky innovative/bold things since >INSERT TIME PERIOD HERE< is debatable and i would argue the same about the "boldness level" for anything that Square made during the pre and poss merging time. Moreover i would argue that Sakaguchi is mostly a conservative creator and by definition so was the "soul" of FF(FFVII being more or less kinda the exception,emphasis on kinda)before his departure.
Playing safe is a bummer in the long term,though i would argue that they didn't always play safe(or not risky)since 1997, random examples: FFXI,FFXIVARR,Kingdom hearts,all Fabula Nova Crystallis games (again, as to how their boldness compare to other games is debatable as i said before). Althought the real bummer would be that most of the fanbase(my perseption) is embracing and shouting Square to play safe ~cough~Bravery Default~cough~ .
Whether Square is no longer making risky innovative/bold things since >INSERT TIME PERIOD HERE< is debatable and i would argue the same about the "boldness level" for anything that Square made during the pre and poss merging time. Moreover i would argue that Sakaguchi is mostly a conservative creator and by definition so was the "soul" of FF(FFVII being more or less kinda the exception,emphasis on kinda)before his departure.
Playing safe is a bummer in the long term,though i would argue that they didn't always play safe(or not risky)since 1997, random examples: FFXI,FFXIVARR,Kingdom hearts,all Fabula Nova Crystallis games (again, as to how their boldness compare to other games is debatable as i said before). Althought the real bummer would be that most of the fanbase(my perseption) is embracing and shouting Square to play safe ~cough~Bravery Default~cough~ .
Well, 11 was a Sakaguchi project - he personally said "I want a Final Fantasy MMO" after playing Everquest in the late 90s. He greenlit FF9, 10 and 11 all at the same time, more or less.
Kingdom Hearts was also Sakaguchi. Nomura famously walked in on a meeting between Sakaguchi & Hashimoto where they were laying out base plans for the idea of a collaboration project with Disney Japan. Nomura interjected and said "If this project goes ahead, I'd like to be involved," and Sakaguchi gave Nomura the job of heading up the title around a week later. Nomura can be credited for creating much of what KH is, but he did not have the actual idea. If people like Sakaguchi hadn't prodded him, e
FF14 ARR is very bold, though. Wada deserves credit for that. FNC I'd argue is, as an idea, pretty safe & run of the mill - the intention was to make more use of the assets from each FF title, be those from a story or lore sense or from a technical build sense - and that's a pretty conservative, business-led decision. Sakaguchi led more from the heart than the head, basically. That sometimes landed him in trouble, but things like KH, FF11 (and by association 14), FF7 and its CG-driven, story focused attitude and so on wouldn't exist without him.
RE Bravely Default - it's traditional, but it isn't safe, IMO. That's because those types of games can't work or sell as well as they used to. The game world has moved on; this is why a remake of FF7 is a difficult proposition. They'd have to significantly modify the battle system to stand up to modern standards for Square - it's patently obvious they no longer believe in turn-based in a traditional sense for a triple-A console title- it either has to be flashy and dynamic looking like FF13, or an actual action game like FF15 is to be. This is why Bravely Default surprised Square - they didn't even bother bringing it West because they thought it was a non-starter, and Nintendo proved them wrong.
I think what a lot of people want is actually the opposite of playing safe - a lot of the fans want them to take the chance of making something based off the old game style, but with evolutions - they want to challenge the idea that turn based and such can't work. Square is playing it more safe, though, and are trying to copy Western action games and the like (look at that FF15 train footage, which is obviously heavily influenced by the Uncharted and Mass Effect's of the world), which isn't what a lot of the older fans want from FF. The thing is, Square doesn't believe that'll sell and so is playing it safe by pursuing what is popular with their own twist. Sakaguchi was - is, to be honest - more thoughtful about what the next big thing could be, as opposed to jumping on whatever is big now. His track record proves that (ironic as FF1 was itself a copycat rather than an innovation); that's why he's revered.
Kingdom Hearts was also Sakaguchi. Nomura famously walked in on a meeting between Sakaguchi & Hashimoto where they were laying out base plans for the idea of a collaboration project with Disney Japan. Nomura interjected and said "If this project goes ahead, I'd like to be involved," and Sakaguchi gave Nomura the job of heading up the title around a week later. Nomura can be credited for creating much of what KH is, but he did not have the actual idea. If people like Sakaguchi hadn't prodded him, e
FF14 ARR is very bold, though. Wada deserves credit for that. FNC I'd argue is, as an idea, pretty safe & run of the mill - the intention was to make more use of the assets from each FF title, be those from a story or lore sense or from a technical build sense - and that's a pretty conservative, business-led decision. Sakaguchi led more from the heart than the head, basically. That sometimes landed him in trouble, but things like KH, FF11 (and by association 14), FF7 and its CG-driven, story focused attitude and so on wouldn't exist without him.
RE Bravely Default - it's traditional, but it isn't safe, IMO. That's because those types of games can't work or sell as well as they used to. The game world has moved on; this is why a remake of FF7 is a difficult proposition. They'd have to significantly modify the battle system to stand up to modern standards for Square - it's patently obvious they no longer believe in turn-based in a traditional sense for a triple-A console title- it either has to be flashy and dynamic looking like FF13, or an actual action game like FF15 is to be. This is why Bravely Default surprised Square - they didn't even bother bringing it West because they thought it was a non-starter, and Nintendo proved them wrong.
I think what a lot of people want is actually the opposite of playing safe - a lot of the fans want them to take the chance of making something based off the old game style, but with evolutions - they want to challenge the idea that turn based and such can't work. Square is playing it more safe, though, and are trying to copy Western action games and the like (look at that FF15 train footage, which is obviously heavily influenced by the Uncharted and Mass Effect's of the world), which isn't what a lot of the older fans want from FF. The thing is, Square doesn't believe that'll sell and so is playing it safe by pursuing what is popular with their own twist. Sakaguchi was - is, to be honest - more thoughtful about what the next big thing could be, as opposed to jumping on whatever is big now. His track record proves that (ironic as FF1 was itself a copycat rather than an innovation); that's why he's revered.
Fair arguement.
I could give you the point in Sakaguchi being "more thoughtful about what the next big thing could be", but it begs some questions to me like why so conservative in FF using the same battle system from FFIV to FFIX (even though there were jobs,espers,materia,jungnation/gf, and so on,it were still the same battle system) and FFX going back to the first 3(more or less). Also does that more thoughtful thing still apply to the sakaguchi post Square departure ?
RE Bravery Default as you said wasn't a safe think, from a marketing point of view, from a creative one(and as an idea) it was still a traditional safe game.
This is what i understood from your post : the older FF fan want Square not to play safe and want something based off the old game style,but evolutions and challenge the idea that turnbase can't work and suck. Well i share the same idea that turnbase can still work on a FF game or games in general, i'll give a point there too.
Though the horrible truth is that ,as an idea, is still as safe as Bravery Default(like the example of FFXIVARR), even if you try to put tons of tweaks in between. Lets look in Square(soft and enix together) portfolio, how many turnbase FF games and non turnbase FF are there for each one (excluiding FF games that don't belong to either like theatrhythm or aren't "RPG" like dissida)?.
Even if a game like FFXV that might be copying western action "big thing of now" and may be playing safe ,in my eyes it is stills playing less safe than a turnbase (with its own tweaks/evolutions) FF, the only risky thing that a turnbase may surpass an action FF is in market performance, although this may no longer hold truth going by"Bravery Default reception (and more turnbase games from other franchises) turning turnbase in something as safe as the the popular action western big thing of now.
What does FNC stand for ? Cause on the internet i found lot of definitons that don't fit so well in the sentence where you used it.
I could give you the point in Sakaguchi being "more thoughtful about what the next big thing could be", but it begs some questions to me like why so conservative in FF using the same battle system from FFIV to FFIX (even though there were jobs,espers,materia,jungnation/gf, and so on,it were still the same battle system) and FFX going back to the first 3(more or less). Also does that more thoughtful thing still apply to the sakaguchi post Square departure ?
RE Bravery Default as you said wasn't a safe think, from a marketing point of view, from a creative one(and as an idea) it was still a traditional safe game.
This is what i understood from your post : the older FF fan want Square not to play safe and want something based off the old game style,but evolutions and challenge the idea that turnbase can't work and suck. Well i share the same idea that turnbase can still work on a FF game or games in general, i'll give a point there too.
Though the horrible truth is that ,as an idea, is still as safe as Bravery Default(like the example of FFXIVARR), even if you try to put tons of tweaks in between. Lets look in Square(soft and enix together) portfolio, how many turnbase FF games and non turnbase FF are there for each one (excluiding FF games that don't belong to either like theatrhythm or aren't "RPG" like dissida)?.
Even if a game like FFXV that might be copying western action "big thing of now" and may be playing safe ,in my eyes it is stills playing less safe than a turnbase (with its own tweaks/evolutions) FF, the only risky thing that a turnbase may surpass an action FF is in market performance, although this may no longer hold truth going by"Bravery Default reception (and more turnbase games from other franchises) turning turnbase in something as safe as the the popular action western big thing of now.
What does FNC stand for ? Cause on the internet i found lot of definitons that don't fit so well in the sentence where you used it.
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Wow @APZonerunner you're very informative. I love learning, especially about Final Fantasy. Thank you! ^_^
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