Can Final Fantasy XV be appealing towards Western RPG players and beyond?

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Wazi the pa

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Oct 26, 2013
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#1
This thought was something I had experienced way back in E3 2013 when FFXV was first announced. I saw some western Youtubers (particularly AngryJoeShow) commenting on how the game holds gameplay elements that WRPG players could really get into.

Coming back to the present, after watching the Uncovered event and having played the Platinum demo, the same thought returns: Can Final Fantasy XV be appealing towards WRPG players and beyond?

For me, having played the latest FFXV demo, the combat is particularly something that could grab their attention. I sort of first compared the FFXV combat to the combat system in the Souls game (Dark Souls, Bloodborne); enemies with erratic patterns in movement and actions, thus being moderately or highly difficult to beat. The Iron Giant kind of fits the picture but fighting against other enemy types would give me a better idea at it.

What do you think? Could the game's open world exploration be a possible factor? I'll let you decide.
 
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Lulcielid

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#2
I can only said that it will. I think it will be as appealable as FFVII was (not necesarylly talking about the selling units). If an anime game like VII I could pull it off I don´t have reasons to believe why XV boyband could not, regarless of different historical contex of both games.
 
#3
Good question.

I think it will largely be dependent on word-of-mouth whether the game becomes a success with the WRPG crowd. If enough people who are respected for their opinion on WRPGs say it appeals to them I can see at least a decent amount of success, maybe even a full-on breakthrough.
Like the Souls series (and, frankly, some other RPGs out there), this game occupies the same niche set somewhere between a WRPG and a JRPG, though its leanings are more towards the "J" side of that spectrum. So it will likely boil down to the question whether or not those leanings will be accepted by "WRPG tastemakers" or if it'll still be "too Japanese" for them.
 

APZonerunner

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#4
I think it depends largely on review scores and stuff, but if we assume the Platinum Demo is (largely) representative of the final product, especially in terms of how the combat plays out, I think that ship has sailed. I think anyone who has spent a significant amount of time with (and enjoys) more immediate action RPG combat in games like Dragon Age, The Witcher, Skyrim or even Dark Souls will find the FFXV combat lacking; that's a choice they've made deliberately, though, to avoid alienating old turn-based fans.

I think they've obviously made some major changes and concessions to appeal to this audience, but I think when push comes to shove, it's still not quite there. It's not a problem with 'not going far enough', either, it's more a question of nuance of execution.

I like to think I'm pretty on-the-pulse for this particular question, because the weird thing about me is that I've never been a huge JRPG fan. FF was always special to me, and then there were a few other series' - or individual games within series - that attracted me in the same way. But I've never been a Tales person or anything like that, and if you offer me a Bioware game I'll take it over pretty much anything JRPG - but I still enjoy JRPGs, because I like RPGs in general. I think there's a lot of people out there like me, but that means they're on-the-fence buyers. I wouldn't have probably bought the FF13 sequels if not for my job, for instance.

There is one thing I agree with Tetsuya Nomura on, which is this: The 'J' and 'W' designations are actually fairly useless. An RPG is an RPG. The issue is simply market appeal, and that's a broader issue than simply some cultural difference thanks to where the game comes from. The question, really, is not if FF can compel WRPG fans to be interested - it's if it can compel broader RPG fans period to be interested. Dark Souls is great proof of this; that is a game that has shattered the old regional-based expectations. Similarly, The Witcher and Elder Scrolls have broke new ground in Japan, selling record numbers for Western games, and featuring full dubbed Japanese localisations.

The big change for FF is that on the PS1 era if you wanted an RPG on console, it truly was the only game in town on a triple-A level. The other triple-A RPGs (all Western) were, of course, bound to PC. That's what's changed for Final Fantasy, market-wise. I think there's been a general shift too in countries like Britain and America where Japanese culture stuff (like anime) is selling less than it used to also, but I think the main thing is that FF now has high-profile rivals in the RPG space on console. It just so happens they're all Western. FF needs to evolve to tackle these if it wants to remain on the same level... and that's fair enough. I don't think this is entirely the game to do it, though, and it's mainly because I don't think the combat is right for it, though it's hard for me to articulate why.
 
Apr 2, 2016
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#7
Truly, it already has, simply beef up the marketing and you have a game that has massive appeal. The game itself is not widely known as one may think. For instance, yesterday evening I presented my friend with the new trailer and demo (he has never been interested in a FF game). Let me tell you, he changed his mind in quite a swift manner. The cancer of the internet is trying to bring this game down, for whatever reason. FF seems like an easy target or something, but that is for another topic. I digress, and my answer stays sound, Final Fantasy XV is a jackpot game, it hits all the chords while still staying true to its roots, though sometime hard to distinguish.
 
#8
Was it the same for Skyrim and the Witcher 3?
Partially yes. What helped Skyrim of course was that it was the second TES game to make its debut on home consoles - and, at the time, home consoles were discovered to be something that could be a viable platform for a type of game that was mostly at home on the PC. Both it and The Witcher III (and also Fallout 4) were made with console gaming and accessibility in mind and became huge successes. If you look towards the kind of WRPG that is still PC only, there is largely either retro fare like Pillars of Eternity or more in-depth stuff like Mount & Blade.

I kinda wonder how would those 'WRPG crowd' discover and get into FFXV...
As I said... by word of mouth. People who tend to be skeptical rely on that more than marketing or ratings. At least, that's what I do.

I think there's been a general shift too in countries like Britain and America where Japanese culture stuff (like anime) is selling less than it used to also
I think the prevalence of Japanese pop culture hasn't declined, but there has clearly been a shift in perception. Anime especially has largely faded from the public scene compared to the boom days in the early 2000s (in part due to the circumstance that outside of big names like One Piece there's very little anime on TV nowadays), but settled into a fairly self-sufficient niche to the point where there's now a market for more obscure fare like visual novels and even eroge (erotic games). I think the reason for the decline in perception of JRPG outside maybe the Final Fantasy, Tales and Persona franchises is because a lot of the "B-list" contemporary JRPG are even more focused on the now-popular moe style than they were during the PS2 era, which is a fiery hoop to jump through, especially since a lot of western JRPG fans consider themselves to be "oldtaku", i.e. fans of the anime iconography of the 80s to early 2000s. This is actually the reason why I want SE to give Dragon Quest a second chance - they might hit that place that is now mostly run by indies like Zeboyd Games.
 
Apr 2, 2016
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#10
I think right now it is slowly catching on with people who do not normally play FF games.

I think the big determining factor to this games success is going to be E3. Square Enix needs to show their fans that are on the fence about this game why they need to play it and why they will enjoy it, while Sony and Microsoft (especially) will need to show it off at their press conferences and show it off correctly to help spread the appeal of it (They need to show gameplay and not focus on the story). They need to have demos on the show floor and get everyone in the press to play them so that they can write favorable things about it.

Final Fantasy XV has everything going for it to be the most successful and well accepted FF game of all time, but it is going to be up to Square Enix to market the game correctly and find a way to penetrate the audiences that have a stigma about FF and the the audiences who are on a more casual side of gaming. 10 million copies is not such a lofty goal if they are able to show off the games appeal to people outside of their core audience.
 

LeonBlade

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#11
Easily, I don't know why people are mentioning sales and all this other stuff, it has nothing to do with that on a person by person level. People will play a game that looks interesting, reviews can tip this, but honestly, not everyone bases their opinion off of these things. You're more likely these days to have someone pick up a game because a streamer or YouTuber made a video/stream dedicated to the game and they enjoyed watching them play it.

Hence why SE has sought out these people a lot in marketing lately, even though people seem to be confused by this, it makes complete obvious sense to me.

The Witcher, Skyrim or even Dark Souls will find the FFXV combat lacking
And yet, there's a shield even in the demo which plays very similar to how you might play in a game like Dark Souls, and I imagine more things like that will be present in the final game.
 
#15
Worst case: The game makes a loss. We can only speculate to how much the game cost to make, so there's no predicting how many units it has to sell to break even. What happens then? Probably nothing, apart from future projects getting budget cuts.

Also, the 10 million units are a personal wish from Tabata and his crew... management sales projections may be lower than that. Probably around half that amount worldwide.
 

APZonerunner

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#16
Easily, I don't know why people are mentioning sales and all this other stuff, it has nothing to do with that on a person by person level. People will play a game that looks interesting, reviews can tip this, but honestly, not everyone bases their opinion off of these things. You're more likely these days to have someone pick up a game because a streamer or YouTuber made a video/stream dedicated to the game and they enjoyed watching them play it.

Hence why SE has sought out these people a lot in marketing lately, even though people seem to be confused by this, it makes complete obvious sense to me.


And yet, there's a shield even in the demo which plays very similar to how you might play in a game like Dark Souls, and I imagine more things like that will be present in the final game.
I'm not sure what you mean by the first part; we're talking about sales because FF15's ability to reach a Western audience outside of its core base will determine the game's sales-at-large. There's a core base of about 5 million (at a guess) who are fans and will buy an FF anyway unless it's truly terrible; the difference between this and FF7 numbers is the casuals. This is the audience that Sony's 100 million (not inflation adjusted either) marketing campaign reached - the incredible thing about FF7 is it sold to the kind of audiences that now buy Fallout or something, plus COD or Madden, every iteration. (Of course, this led to FF7 supposedly being the most returned game of all time in the US at that point, because the game is very different to what Sony's CG-driven trailers depict), but I digress.

Anyway, the reason people are mentioning sales is because this'll be a hugely determining factor on them. I think that's obvious. Reviews can tip this, but let's not just talk about scored reviews: let's talk about Critical Perception in general. That includes YouTube. I don't think you need to be on metacritic to be influential. On average - Nielsen has a great study out on this - the youtube consensus around games from youtubers and personalities matches up roughly to the metascore, so the quality of the game will determine that. Hopefully it's great; one way it can capture this Western audience is to just be incredible and have excellent word of mouth. The Witcher had a 40 million ad campaign (or something like that), which these days is fairly modest for a AAA game, but the thing that really catapulted that to 10 million sales in a few short months was incredible reviews (93 metacritic) and to go with it an incredible reception from YouTubers. What followed that was amazing word of mouth.

That said -- that's what I was saying earlier, I'm just not convinced with the way the combat feels right now it'll have an easy time converting over fans of those games. I think that's fairly well encapsulated in the response to it across the board, which is mixed. I don't think anybody thinks it's terrible, but it's just doing a specific thing in a certain way that isn't necessarily going to massively, broadly appeal. The shield is one of the most satisfying weapons to use in the demo, alongside the shuriken, but the presence of the shield alone doesn't make it remotely like Souls, that's laughable. It's a very different flow and pace to any of those games that focus on sword-and-board - Skyrim, Souls, whatever, just by nature of the way the camera moves, the way they put a heavy focus on animation priority, etc.

Just saying "It has feature X" doesn't mean people who like that game are going to like it, obviously, because any given feature can be executed in a multitude of ways. Plenty of people I know who hate shooting games in all their forms like Mass Effect because of the RPG-ish way it's executed with stats and stuff, and plenty of fans of Halo hate Destiny because the enemies are stat-driven RPG bullet sponges that numbers pop out of. That's a reductive example, but you see my point, it carries here.

It's an interesting debate, anyway. I do think this - the battle for Westerners who probably haven't bought an FF game since the PS1 or 2 era, or the few of that group who bought FF13, compared it to [insert WRPG here] then traded it in, is where this game's battle for growth for the series will be truly won or lost.

I think the prevalence of Japanese pop culture hasn't declined, but there has clearly been a shift in perception. Anime especially has largely faded from the public scene compared to the boom days in the early 2000s (in part due to the circumstance that outside of big names like One Piece there's very little anime on TV nowadays), but settled into a fairly self-sufficient niche to the point where there's now a market for more obscure fare like visual novels and even eroge (erotic games). I think the reason for the decline in perception of JRPG outside maybe the Final Fantasy, Tales and Persona franchises is because a lot of the "B-list" contemporary JRPG are even more focused on the now-popular moe style than they were during the PS2 era, which is a fiery hoop to jump through, especially since a lot of western JRPG fans consider themselves to be "oldtaku", i.e. fans of the anime iconography of the 80s to early 2000s. This is actually the reason why I want SE to give Dragon Quest a second chance - they might hit that place that is now mostly run by indies like Zeboyd Games.
Isn't what you're describing - being less on the public scene - precisely a decline in the prevalence of that side of Japanese pop culture? I think there's plentt of Japanese culture that hasn't declined, and things like J and K-pop are starting to find a newfound popularity in the West, but I'm just specifically referring to the piece of culture that's mostly defined by anime and RPGs like FF and the like; I think the prevalence of that has declined somewhat (measurable in things like a drop in anime sales and in those of more niche Japanese games that aren't things like Mario or PES). FF is swimming upstream rather well in the face of that, I feel, even so far. For all the talk of FF13 or the series 'failing to succeed', I think its sales were ultimately admirable.

I agree about Dragon Quest, but the problem of course is that Zeboyd (and their ilk) are making games with a fraction of the cost and so have to sell a fraction of the copies for it all to be worthwhile. Would SE make a stripped-back, super cheap Dragon Quest? Or would they view it as beneath them and the brand? Either way, there's a solid audience for that sort of game, it just doesn't support a huge, huge AAA game. For all the belly-aching people do about Persona 5 vs FF15, for instance, they're not even in the same class. FF is a completely different beast. The Persona games have a very modest team and budget, because Atlus knows their audience is a couple million at most.
 

dissasterrific

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#17
A lot of people here have mostly mentioned the gameplay part, but I will bring up the story side of things because I think that it's just as important to be considered as well.

Obviously, with its world being heavily influenced by European settings, it would definitely quickly catch the attention of the Western audience hugely. However, as fans we all know that despite how FF has always been aesthetically Western in origin, its plot and characters will, at the very least, sometimes display traits that are heavily influenced by the culture of the writers, who are Japanese. The relationship of Noctis and the gang with each other is a good example of it, their bond is influenced by Japan's definition of brotherhood, which is not really the same as how it's seen in the West. People (like me) who are more aware of how males in Eastern Asian cultures bond together will understand it more to an extent. Another example within the series is Hope's reception being largely different in Eastern Asia and the West, because of different opinions on his effeminate nature largely influenced by Japan's culture. I am sure XV will have instances like these no matter how Western the game looks, and this may alienate some Western players. Of course the localization team is responsible in translating the game to fit to the West, but as with any work it's impossible to erase all displays of cultural traits of the origin.
 
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yeah_93

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#18
Well, certainly the game looks incredible (if they fix the game's performance and IQ issues) and they can maybe tweak the combat so it isn't as polarizing for the final version. However, what beyond that is appealing to westerners? For example, the game's main theme is about Brotherhood, right? But how much of that brotherhood theme is appealing to westerners when the main cast doesn't look like your average group of bros but rather 4 members of a JPop band that dress like weirdos? I'm not saying the characters are entirely deal breakers, but they are the main face of the game, and they look straight out of an anime. At least Noctis does.
 
#19
Isn't what you're describing - being less on the public scene - precisely a decline in the prevalence of that side of Japanese pop culture?
Yes and no. I can only attest to the way things were here in Germany, back in the late 00s/early 10s when the local anime scene nearly died - in part due to the folding of two of anime's biggest local distributors, ADV Films Germany and OVA Films - although it has actually rejuvenated by now and is possibly even growing - there's more anime distributors now than there were in the boom days. A lot of that has to do with a shift in distribution - the introduction of streaming services focused on anime like Crunchyroll, DAISUKI and others replaced TV and the necessity to buy DVDs/BDs if you wanted to see a particular show by a fair amount. These things are in fact less public because it's not happening on TV (which in Germany, is still a stronger method for public recognition), but they didn't disappear and shows like Attack on Titan still get recognized outside the core fanbase. Also, visual novels have become increasingly popular in the last decade - and they're insanely anime-ish.

I agree about Dragon Quest, but the problem of course is that Zeboyd (and their ilk) are making games with a fraction of the cost and so have to sell a fraction of the copies for it all to be worthwhile. Would SE make a stripped-back, super cheap Dragon Quest? Or would they view it as beneath them and the brand? Either way, there's a solid audience for that sort of game, it just doesn't support a huge, huge AAA game.
Except Dragon Quest isn't exactly "a huge, huge AAA game" - maybe "AA". Its main audience has always been Japan (DQ wasn't sold in Europe until Journey of the Cursed King hit), so its budget isn't nowhere near as big as your average FF's. Also, Dragon Quest was a modest hit back in the late 00s - not a full-blown blockbuster like FF - but popular enough to create a strong fanbase. We'll see how VII and VIII do when they hit later this year.
 

Squirrel Emperor

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#20
Can Final Fantasy XV be appealing towards Western RPG players and beyond?

Well, they're trying to as that's where all the money is today. However, there are some things going on within the game that could turn some people off as they're also trying to make it appeal to all regions. That tells me they won't be able to give everything a market wants, which ends up making everyone a secondary focus instead of a primary one.