Final Fantasy XV - General News Thread

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Feb 17, 2019
60
164
And there is a person who posted artworks of the 4 DLC (Ardyn/Aranea/Luna/Noctis). In the Booklet of FFXV Dawn of the Future.


DLC Ardyn artwork =

https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139618218702770181
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139619426532233219
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139618576288145411
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139619912786350082
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139620033859084289
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139621169081061382
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139620385488592896
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1202897995714293761
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1202898821807820803
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1202979607416324096
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1202980404040482816
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1369070929653940227
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1371967391215857673
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1371968845901148163



DLC Aranea artwork =

https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139621832573820928
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139622499010957312
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139622720709242880
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139623038830428161
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139623280099414017
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139623779884326913
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139624118414917639
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1142054465547177984
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1142054699371249664
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1142085858050367489
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1371966319151755264
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1371966149097836549
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1371969898923110402




DLC Luna artwork =

https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139624589770862592
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139624818125488135
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139624708851359745
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139624461680939008
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1142054887431315457
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1202899457324584961




DLC Noctis artwork =

https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139625397023363072
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1142054961347534848
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1142272471627915266
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1332009464023674884
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1332009589978652675
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1371970609572425728
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1371971454712041475
 
Last edited:

SonOfEtro

Warrior of Light
May 2, 2016
1,034
1,190
And there is a person who posted artworks of the 4 DLC (Ardyn/Aranea/Luna/Noctis). In the Booklet of FFXV Dawn of the Future.

DLC Ardyn artwork =
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139619912786350082
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139620033859084289
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139621169081061382
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139620385488592896



DLC Aranea artwork =
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139621832573820928
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139622005546901505
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139622499010957312
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139622720709242880
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139623038830428161
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139623280099414017
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139623779884326913
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139624118414917639



DLC Luna artwork =
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139624818125488135
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139624708851359745
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139624589770862592
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139624461680939008




DLC Noctis artwork =
https://twitter.com/FinalfantasyxvU/status/1139625397023363072
Interesting thing I realised about DotF when compared to XV's vanilla narrative. Basically....DotF is Ovid's Metamorphosis to XV's Greek mythology. Nice story, but can clash.
 
Jun 3, 2018
53
118
The big thing is that like how Regis saw Omen and gave his son a different fate, the main game is what Noctis sees in the crystal and as such, he chooses a different path. The path where he accepts his fate, Ardyn as well, is the destiny Bahamut laid out for Noct and because of time constraints, Tabata was forced to make that the main narrative, and had to make it as strong as possible, building up to the sacrifice. Given Tabata toiled over the ending, as he himself would have been fully aware of what could not have made it and what is important, he gave us an abridged version of the DotF events. Given the Phantom Wedding is literally how the novel ends, we can interpret that the ending of FFXV, while being the fate Noct is supposed to follow, we do see very brief snippets of the alternate finale.

Seriously, does this not look like Bahamut successfully using Terraflare after Ardyn and Noct's battle?

He curses Luna with Ardyn's power because Ardyn resisting his fate leads to Bahamut needing someone that will fulfill the plan as desired, so he revives Luna and this leads into the alternate grand finale where Noctis decides he's not going to follow the path. The final game features the climax of the entirety of FFXV's story, DotF and all, but we the player did not have the content to view it as such, so most of us accepted it as "In death, they are united" ala Titanic. The reality is the wedding is the true ending of the game, the ultimate outcome for Noct that he chooses. They just ran out of time, so they had to cut Ardyn's backstory, in turn they would have to cut out Aera, in turn they would have to cut out the one guiding Luna on her quest to save Ardyn and cause the alternate events, and in turn they had to cut out the bulk of Luna's story including the "most important goddess in the game", and because of all that being cut out, the bulk of "Episode Noctis" had to be cut out as well. What did this leave us with? The roadtrip, and Noct's destiny.

The final game is very good and the reason people have such a problem with the "alternate" grand finale is that they've long come to accept the main game's ending. However, if we were not privy to this and have the knowledge that we do now, we'd know we only had maybe half the game's story on release. Even with the extra additions made to the game, lots of the concept art for the DLC points to it existing before the game came out, like the Luna concept art showing Luna in her KG dress (the only design that was finalized), and the bros but with muddied faces as they had not designed the older iterations of the characters yet. Not to mention the Versus-nature of the black dress Luna wears. The very nature of the lack of older iterations of the bros in the concept art as well as the style being tied to various ones that came out in the original art book, we can easily tell that majority of the concept art for Dawn of the Future was truly concept art for the game before they realized they had to trim the game down.

As such, the whole "Alternate" grand finale I will again maintain was never alternate; the main game was the alternate events. Ardyn deciding to resist fate leads to a scene that is exactly like a scene depicted in an old script for the game; the original chapter 14 (the entirety of chapter 14 was supposed to be in the crystal, with chapter 15 being the return to Insomnia) opened with Noct being surrounded by his Royal Arms in the same way Ardyn is threatened with darkness eternal by Bahamut. Given they cut out Ardyn's story and the rest of the story along with it, there would have been no reason to have Bahamut's true intentions in the main game, so they defaulted to Bahamut being a true neutral when in reality he's a Lawful Evil. "Everything must be done" he says in the main game, because that is the destiny Noct is being shown in the crystal, that it's all necessary and there's no reason for Noct (and the player) to think of any alternative.

So many Versus camera angles, scenarios and other things were repurposed for the modern game. Even Stella fighting Noct with their respective floating symbols in the streets is exactly like Ardyn and Noct fighting in the original game, and then the grand finale has Bahamut blessing her with Ardyn's own powers and this would lead once again to that same Noct VS. Stella/Luna scenario.

Dawn of the Future was never meant to be an alternate grand finale or even DLC; it was the main game scenario. The leak that they "wasted time and resources" on the demos of Platinum Demo are wrong, because the Platinum Demo is definitely the Forest of Memories that Noct was to wander in the Crystal to view all of the different timelines, realities and memories of his loved ones. As such, Noct seeing Regis's struggle, Luna's journey, Ignis's desperate stand to protect him and finally, his death that Bahamut laid out for him, he decides to throw it all away and pursue a reality that doesn't screw them over as much.

To put it into an easily digestible manner, if FFXV was a 3-disc game, Disc 1 would have been the bro trip to Altissia. Disc 2 would have been Niflheim and arriving at Insomnia, and Disc 3 would have been all of the character's attempts at achieving a happier life, culminating in the final battle featuring a floating castle in front of the moon like the Big Bang artwork featured as well as Miss Goddess Luna herself. The logos of all FNC-related games directly deal with their most important aspect, and given the logo wasn't exactly prominent until DotF, we can again use it to explain why the game itself is so sparse. A lot of dialogue was rewritten for Ardyn to make him more mysterious as the game wasn't building up to Luna, Bahamut and alternate events; they had to cut that out. The game then had to focus on Ardyn's mystery and his relation to Noct, which is why the main game at launch was just Noct's story; the game was supposed to have the Brotherhood stuff in the game as cutscenes, before time constraints led to them not even being able to consider Brotherhood.

By the time they reached the end of the initial brotrip, they realized if they did everything else, it'd be a shitload of cinematics, half-assed and they'd have to scrap many other plans for the open world. So they trimmed the story at a point where it does in fact have a satisfying ending, and allowed them to bulk up the game. With 3 extra years of time, we would have 100% had the true Versus epic.
 

Ikkin

Warrior of Light
Oct 30, 2016
1,099
1,704
CEDEC has some interesting info sprinkled in. I'm interested in what kind of new IP SQEX thinks was potent enough to move away from one of their biggest IPs.

There's also a reference there to a "New Mobile Title for China". I think that must be in reference to the new mobile XV title that's in development. Means Luminous and SQEX really is deeply involved in this mysterious title.
I'm not really convinced that we'll get a lot of information about LumiPro's new IP... at least not in the form of an obvious reveal. They could use their demo to show off some aspects of the IP without admitting that that's what they were doing, though. xD;

As for the "new mobile title for China," I think you're right to link it to the Chinese FFXV game. It's hard to say how much work the LumiPro employee actually did on the game, though, since it's not implausible that LumiPro could have been acting in an advisory capacity (as @Bazztek suggested).

Yeah SE usually always uploads a tech demo for the coming gen and so far they have yet to show one for next gen. I used to think that it wasn't likely that Agni would become a game and that it was just a ever evolving tech demo thing, but then I remebered FFXIV was first shown off as a tech demo in 2005 that was under the title of "Rapture", and it was rerevealed as FFXIV in 2009. Agni was first shown in 2012 in a tech demo titled "Agni's Philosophy Final Fantasy", so that already gave it a FF connection, and according to the people involved the tech demo itself took 1 year to make, so they started making it sometime in 2011, though SE technically made it twice, first they had Visual Works created a prerendered CG version of it and then they had the Luminous devs recreate it in real time with Luminous. Fast forward to 2015 and we next see Agni in a tech demo titled "WITCH - Chapter 0 [cry]" which Tabata himself would unveil via a video message, and some artwork by Yusuke Naora showing Agni in a different outfit was also shown in 2015.


I think if they do show a new Luminous tech demo it will likely involve Agni again.
The fact that Agni's been around for so long is part of the reason why I'm expecting LumiPro to go in a different direction for their new IP, honestly! I can't imagine that the high-level creative people on the LumiPro team aren't itching to be able to create somethingthat's entirely their own.

I forgot about the new costume for Agni, though, which does add fuel to the fire that her concept is something that the team is interested in pushing forward on their own terms. If their PS5 equivalent of Agni's Philosophy involves Agni again, I'd be inclined to assume that they are intending to go that route.

The big thing is that like how Regis saw Omen and gave his son a different fate, the main game is what Noctis sees in the crystal and as such, he chooses a different path. The path where he accepts his fate, Ardyn as well, is the destiny Bahamut laid out for Noct and because of time constraints, Tabata was forced to make that the main narrative, and had to make it as strong as possible, building up to the sacrifice. Given Tabata toiled over the ending, as he himself would have been fully aware of what could not have made it and what is important, he gave us an abridged version of the DotF events. Given the Phantom Wedding is literally how the novel ends, we can interpret that the ending of FFXV, while being the fate Noct is supposed to follow, we do see very brief snippets of the alternate finale.

Seriously, does this not look like Bahamut successfully using Terraflare after Ardyn and Noct's battle?

He curses Luna with Ardyn's power because Ardyn resisting his fate leads to Bahamut needing someone that will fulfill the plan as desired, so he revives Luna and this leads into the alternate grand finale where Noctis decides he's not going to follow the path. The final game features the climax of the entirety of FFXV's story, DotF and all, but we the player did not have the content to view it as such, so most of us accepted it as "In death, they are united" ala Titanic. The reality is the wedding is the true ending of the game, the ultimate outcome for Noct that he chooses. They just ran out of time, so they had to cut Ardyn's backstory, in turn they would have to cut out Aera, in turn they would have to cut out the one guiding Luna on her quest to save Ardyn and cause the alternate events, and in turn they had to cut out the bulk of Luna's story including the "most important goddess in the game", and because of all that being cut out, the bulk of "Episode Noctis" had to be cut out as well. What did this leave us with? The roadtrip, and Noct's destiny.

The final game is very good and the reason people have such a problem with the "alternate" grand finale is that they've long come to accept the main game's ending. However, if we were not privy to this and have the knowledge that we do now, we'd know we only had maybe half the game's story on release. Even with the extra additions made to the game, lots of the concept art for the DLC points to it existing before the game came out, like the Luna concept art showing Luna in her KG dress (the only design that was finalized), and the bros but with muddied faces as they had not designed the older iterations of the characters yet. Not to mention the Versus-nature of the black dress Luna wears. The very nature of the lack of older iterations of the bros in the concept art as well as the style being tied to various ones that came out in the original art book, we can easily tell that majority of the concept art for Dawn of the Future was truly concept art for the game before they realized they had to trim the game down.

As such, the whole "Alternate" grand finale I will again maintain was never alternate; the main game was the alternate events. Ardyn deciding to resist fate leads to a scene that is exactly like a scene depicted in an old script for the game; the original chapter 14 (the entirety of chapter 14 was supposed to be in the crystal, with chapter 15 being the return to Insomnia) opened with Noct being surrounded by his Royal Arms in the same way Ardyn is threatened with darkness eternal by Bahamut. Given they cut out Ardyn's story and the rest of the story along with it, there would have been no reason to have Bahamut's true intentions in the main game, so they defaulted to Bahamut being a true neutral when in reality he's a Lawful Evil. "Everything must be done" he says in the main game, because that is the destiny Noct is being shown in the crystal, that it's all necessary and there's no reason for Noct (and the player) to think of any alternative.

So many Versus camera angles, scenarios and other things were repurposed for the modern game. Even Stella fighting Noct with their respective floating symbols in the streets is exactly like Ardyn and Noct fighting in the original game, and then the grand finale has Bahamut blessing her with Ardyn's own powers and this would lead once again to that same Noct VS. Stella/Luna scenario.

Dawn of the Future was never meant to be an alternate grand finale or even DLC; it was the main game scenario. The leak that they "wasted time and resources" on the demos of Platinum Demo are wrong, because the Platinum Demo is definitely the Forest of Memories that Noct was to wander in the Crystal to view all of the different timelines, realities and memories of his loved ones. As such, Noct seeing Regis's struggle, Luna's journey, Ignis's desperate stand to protect him and finally, his death that Bahamut laid out for him, he decides to throw it all away and pursue a reality that doesn't screw them over as much.

To put it into an easily digestible manner, if FFXV was a 3-disc game, Disc 1 would have been the bro trip to Altissia. Disc 2 would have been Niflheim and arriving at Insomnia, and Disc 3 would have been all of the character's attempts at achieving a happier life, culminating in the final battle featuring a floating castle in front of the moon like the Big Bang artwork featured as well as Miss Goddess Luna herself. The logos of all FNC-related games directly deal with their most important aspect, and given the logo wasn't exactly prominent until DotF, we can again use it to explain why the game itself is so sparse. A lot of dialogue was rewritten for Ardyn to make him more mysterious as the game wasn't building up to Luna, Bahamut and alternate events; they had to cut that out. The game then had to focus on Ardyn's mystery and his relation to Noct, which is why the main game at launch was just Noct's story; the game was supposed to have the Brotherhood stuff in the game as cutscenes, before time constraints led to them not even being able to consider Brotherhood.

By the time they reached the end of the initial brotrip, they realized if they did everything else, it'd be a shitload of cinematics, half-assed and they'd have to scrap many other plans for the open world. So they trimmed the story at a point where it does in fact have a satisfying ending, and allowed them to bulk up the game. With 3 extra years of time, we would have 100% had the true Versus epic.
Allow me to throw a wrench in the works:

There's absolutely no reason to think that FFXV as released was intended to be a heavily abridged version of the "Versus epic" as opposed to an heir to a different Versus draft.

The Phantom Wedding is clearly intended to represent the afterlife, not an alternate timeline (otherwise, Noct and Luna wouldn't have appeared like ghosts, surrounded in the crystals that have been used in association with death since FFXIII). The scene with the giant blue Bahamut shows all the other Astrals offering Bahamut their assistance (with Shiva carrying Ifrit's horn to represent him), which makes no sense in the context of DotF. Even the Forest of Memories is ambiguous, since the datamine demonstrates neither the effect that that sequence had on Noct's character nor when in the game's development it was actually removed.

In contrast, there are a number of thematic connections between FFXV's original ending and some of the earliest information we got about Versus. Here's a quote from 2006:

Nomura: The current plot is truly very sad. It can be said that pain is from not having any bonds, but it is also the feeling that comes from a tragic story. There will likely not be a love relationship in the story, and if there is it is not what you will imagine. (laughs) You are probably thinking that instead of love it is friendship, but that is not to say there are no female characters. Simply that the main drive of the start is bonds and the pain that accompany them. That is the true nature of pain.

Kitase: Just now you mentioned that “FFVersusXIII” faces the challenge of being identified with the numbering. It is adventurous isn’t it. It is something that I’ve been wanting to do but has not been possible until now. With a game it is often thought to create a conclusion which can be continued. On the other hand we seldom think of how refreshing it can be to have a climax that will remain concluded.

Nomura: After the announcement, there were many questions about the dark hero characteristic of the story, but it is not something so cool. It is not the case where the entire story and all the characters are completely dark. The story contains pain, but that is a realistic part of the expression between the characters and the hero as part of friendship. The story tells of companions who spend time together and the happiness they share each day as well as the heavy responsibilities they carry.

Kitase: Even thought it is a tragedy, there should be some hope somewhere.


Tell me -- does that sound more like DotF, or FFXV as it released in 2016?

Furthermore, another early interview by Kitase and Nomura said:

Nomura: I would say misery and worry play a huge part in the story and when the plot was being first considered I spoke with Mr. Kitase and we decided to take an even more “sad’ direction for the story.

Kitase: People will cry because of the story, they will get involved into it and will be crying for a whole week and on!

Nomura: It’ll be that awful?? We’ll balance it very well because playing and seeing those unpleasant sad scenes for hours could become a problem for avid players so we’ll work on that.


Again, what does this sound more like, DotF or FFXV as it released in 2016?

And here's one last description of Versus from the pre-2010 era:

It’s a dark and sad story which aims to show how heavy and painful the burden that the heroes are carrying is, how painful their paths can be, and how important flashes of happiness are in a world ravaged by greed and despair. The keyword for Versus XIII story is misery, and it can be applied to all main characters.

Prior to 2010, then, it seems like the plan was to make a single, conclusive game focused on the burden of responsibility and the pain that's an inevitable part of close relationships with other people. It seems a lot more natural to think that FFXV as it released in 2016 might have decided to dump the 2013 drafts outright and draw upon the opportunity provided by its earliest drafts to trim away all the FNC-dependant complications that would make it impossible to release a single, conclusive game in favor of concepts designed for that very purpose.

What can people learn from the character of Noctis and Final Fantasy XV ?
The value of self-sacrificial love.
 
Last edited:
Jun 3, 2018
53
118
Lots of words and stuff
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that Tabata drew in that direction because of the time constraints, and that DotF was an attempt to flesh out the grander scope elements. It's almost as if they utilized multiple drafts of the story to build upon the alternative timeline events. To us, it's development problems. If we had never known about the problems, and things got released as planned, it'd instead be built upon as an epic.

On the topic of XV, Nomura stated; "If you make something this dense, it becomes an extraordinarily grand thing. There was an idea to drop the sheer volume and the density, but, in that situation, desired elements undoubtedly die, too." This definitely lines up with both what you and me have said, painting Nomura as blowing up the story, Tabata attempting to reel it back, and then the DLC attempting to redo Nomura's original scope but now with the elements Tabata added. In turn, the story of XV may have wound up far, far grander than anybody anticipated.

Nomura also stated in regards to sequels; "In the trailer, there was a line that read “A World of the Versus Epic,” which suggests that it will be part of an epic. While Final Fantasy XV will have one climax, as a story, we plan to continue it further.”

It seems when Tabata was brought on, and they made choices to trim down the plot, it seems the Dawn of the Future stuff bar Ardyn was trimmed down, as a game about sibling bloodlines having a petty feud was what Tabata released the main game as. Without the Forest of Memories as well as them deciding to delegate the Chocobro scenes to an anime, they simply could not flesh out Ardyn's story with Somnus. The Forest of Memories itself seemed to be an attempt at adding what was a huge info dump for Chapter 14, and they repurposed it into the chapter 15 we now have, with the extra things we're allowed to do. The final game, since they had no forest, simply gave us Umbra early on, rather than give us a moment to finish our sidequests and then beeline it to the end. Because the end was so sparse, and they cut out the forest, they had to once again reduce the scope.

XV was always supposed to have one, emotional climax with Noct's death, but the grand story of Versus that Nomura had in mind was definitely fleshed out with the DotF. DotF itself definitely was an opportunity to do more than anybody else had thought possible, but the ambition always seemed to get the best of them.

I'm sorry I understand your point of view
I will change my question
What can people learn from the character of Noctis and Final Fantasy XV ?

?
Namely, enjoy the life you were given. With all the pain and tragedy and responsibility and the inevitable separation from your loved ones, you might as well enjoy everything life has to offer, good and bad.
 

Ikkin

Warrior of Light
Oct 30, 2016
1,099
1,704
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that Tabata drew in that direction because of the time constraints, and that DotF was an attempt to flesh out the grander scope elements. It's almost as if they utilized multiple drafts of the story to build upon the alternative timeline events. To us, it's development problems. If we had never known about the problems, and things got released as planned, it'd instead be built upon as an epic.

On the topic of XV, Nomura stated; "If you make something this dense, it becomes an extraordinarily grand thing. There was an idea to drop the sheer volume and the density, but, in that situation, desired elements undoubtedly die, too." This definitely lines up with both what you and me have said, painting Nomura as blowing up the story, Tabata attempting to reel it back, and then the DLC attempting to redo Nomura's original scope but now with the elements Tabata added. In turn, the story of XV may have wound up far, far grander than anybody anticipated.

Nomura also stated in regards to sequels; "In the trailer, there was a line that read “A World of the Versus Epic,” which suggests that it will be part of an epic. While Final Fantasy XV will have one climax, as a story, we plan to continue it further.”

It seems when Tabata was brought on, and they made choices to trim down the plot, it seems the Dawn of the Future stuff bar Ardyn was trimmed down, as a game about sibling bloodlines having a petty feud was what Tabata released the main game as. Without the Forest of Memories as well as them deciding to delegate the Chocobro scenes to an anime, they simply could not flesh out Ardyn's story with Somnus. The Forest of Memories itself seemed to be an attempt at adding what was a huge info dump for Chapter 14, and they repurposed it into the chapter 15 we now have, with the extra things we're allowed to do. The final game, since they had no forest, simply gave us Umbra early on, rather than give us a moment to finish our sidequests and then beeline it to the end. Because the end was so sparse, and they cut out the forest, they had to once again reduce the scope.

XV was always supposed to have one, emotional climax with Noct's death, but the grand story of Versus that Nomura had in mind was definitely fleshed out with the DotF. DotF itself definitely was an opportunity to do more than anybody else had thought possible, but the ambition always seemed to get the best of them.
I don't disagree that time constraints were an influence on the direction Tabata chose. Where I do disagree, however, is with the idea that the draft that DotF was drawing from was somehow more valid than the direction Tabata chose to take for the final game... and that, because the DotF-linked draft was "more valid," Tabata was looking for ways to get back to it all along.

It's worth pointing out that the Nomura quotes that you referenced came from 2013, just after the game was revealed to have been transformed into a mainline Final Fantasy. My suspicion is that the reason why the game had built up "the sheer volume and the density" to require multiple games had at least as much to do with the conversion from "Nomura's AAA-Indie Auteur Experiment" to "The Next Mainline Final Fantasy," especially since most of the DotF elements that don't match things Nomura had said previously were exactly the sorts of things that a mainline Final Fantasy team might desire*. (Then again, given that Nomura was saying he still wanted to tell the same story with his first FFXV game as he wanted to tell with Versus XIII, it's possible that his strategy was to cordon off as much of the "Next Mainline FF" stuff into a sequel as possible. XD; )

* I've definitely seen it mentioned in connection with FFXII and Matsuno's inability to complete that game that one of the things that contributed to his stress was the expectation that mainline FF teams are too democratic in determining what is included for an auteur director to keep everything he doesn't like out of the game. (The instance mentioned was the sci-fi looking airships, which Matsuno didn't like but couldn't forbid.)

Tabata's position under these circumstances was probably just, "Look, we've only got three years, and our engine still isn't finished. Let's just do the AAA-indie experiment version and get players as invested in Noct's suffering and friendships as we can." Then, after he was satisfied with how the intended-to-be-complete Royal Edition turned out and realized that his team was still being paid to make more FFXV stuff, he turned to the people who'd been pushing for the mainline FF version all along and said, "Here's an AU where you can use those old ideas you've been dying to use -- have fun!"
 
Jun 3, 2018
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I don't disagree that time constraints were an influence on the direction Tabata chose. Where I do disagree, however, is with the idea that the draft that DotF was drawing from was somehow more valid than the direction Tabata chose to take for the final game... and that, because the DotF-linked draft was "more valid," Tabata was looking for ways to get back to it all along.

It's worth pointing out that the Nomura quotes that you referenced came from 2013, just after the game was revealed to have been transformed into a mainline Final Fantasy. My suspicion is that the reason why the game had built up "the sheer volume and the density" to require multiple games had at least as much to do with the conversion from "Nomura's AAA-Indie Auteur Experiment" to "The Next Mainline Final Fantasy," especially since most of the DotF elements that don't match things Nomura had said previously were exactly the sorts of things that a mainline Final Fantasy team might desire*. (Then again, given that Nomura was saying he still wanted to tell the same story with his first FFXV game as he wanted to tell with Versus XIII, it's possible that his strategy was to cordon off as much of the "Next Mainline FF" stuff into a sequel as possible. XD; )

* I've definitely seen it mentioned in connection with FFXII and Matsuno's inability to complete that game that one of the things that contributed to his stress was the expectation that mainline FF teams are too democratic in determining what is included for an auteur director to keep everything he doesn't like out of the game. (The instance mentioned was the sci-fi looking airships, which Matsuno didn't like but couldn't forbid.)

Tabata's position under these circumstances was probably just, "Look, we've only got three years, and our engine still isn't finished. Let's just do the AAA-indie experiment version and get players as invested in Noct's suffering and friendships as we can." Then, after he was satisfied with how the intended-to-be-complete Royal Edition turned out and realized that his team was still being paid to make more FFXV stuff, he turned to the people who'd been pushing for the mainline FF version all along and said, "Here's an AU where you can use those old ideas you've been dying to use -- have fun!"
I never indicated Tabata's direction was more valid, merely necessary.

All in all, you actually describe much of what I already think. We agree quite a lot on quite a lot of things. Tabata made choices because he had no time to do it all, and upon finishing his work, opted to let the team wrap it up. Royal Edition was clearly supposed to be Episode Luna before they decided to expand on the original scenario ending beforehand. IT makes sense that Nomura wanted to turn it into a musical, DotF has much musical setup.

The start of Episode Noctis even has him fighting golden soldiers outside the citadel, mirroring the original Versus trailer. Lots of old things were seemingly repurposed for the modern iteration of the story and things they didn't think of until the game's additional content came out. IT does segment the story a lot more than it was supposed to be, but absolutely none of FFXV's "alternate" stuff I believe was ever meant to not be in the story. They just had to reinforce the story they could keep in the game. This led to a more simple tale with just one antagonist, whereas the DotF adds much Versus, FNC, pre-launch stuff and more. Lots of older interviews really make sense with some of the new DotF stuff, and the datamine itself has a lot of content that makes sense. Even with how someone found old West Insomnia signs in Platinum Demo, we can take that the iteration of Insomnia in Platinum Demo was from the pre-2016 iteration of the game, probably around the time they could get to the end. They were rewriting the script up until launch, so it's likely that although they could go from beginning to end, the story most likely made absolutely zero sense, as old versions of each chapter would have story content that doesn't line up with changes, removed content and more.
 

SonOfEtro

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May 2, 2016
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Prior to 2010, then, it seems like the plan was to make a single, conclusive game focused on the burden of responsibility and the pain that's an inevitable part of close relationships with other people. It seems a lot more natural to think that FFXV as it released in 2016 might have decided to dump the 2013 drafts outright and draw upon the opportunity provided by its earliest drafts to trim away all the FNC-dependant complications that would make it impossible to release a single, conclusive game in favor of concepts designed for that very purpose.
That sort of falls in line with that the team stated at various times about reviewing the project and seeing what could be carried over into XV. They're technically two different projects with shared DNA.
 

Ikkin

Warrior of Light
Oct 30, 2016
1,099
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I never indicated Tabata's direction was more valid, merely necessary.
I wasn't saying you thought Tabata's actual direction was more valid. ;)

When you said things like, "The reality is the wedding is the true ending of the game, the ultimate outcome for Noct that he chooses" and "the whole 'Alternate' grand finale I will again maintain was never alternate; the main game was the alternate events," you seemed to be heavily implying that the DotF version was more valid than the game as it actually released.

My argument is that the wedding as it exists in the main game isn't "the ultimate outcome for Noct that he chooses" as if DotF canon were still in play, and the "alternate grand finale" is, in fact, alternate with regards to the main game even if it was pulled from an earlier draft. While it appears very likely, given what we know now, that DotF elements were considered for use in the main game but removed due to time constraints, that doesn't make the main game "alternate" any more than FFVII is "alternate" to the "Detective Joe investigating terrorists in NYC" draft of that story.

All in all, you actually describe much of what I already think. We agree quite a lot on quite a lot of things. Tabata made choices because he had no time to do it all, and upon finishing his work, opted to let the team wrap it up. Royal Edition was clearly supposed to be Episode Luna before they decided to expand on the original scenario ending beforehand. IT makes sense that Nomura wanted to turn it into a musical, DotF has much musical setup.
The cut concepts for Royal Edition conflict pretty heavily with the DotF concepts, actually. Remember, the datamined Luna animations showed her using the sorts of light/wind magic one might expect from an Oracle and having the ability to summon Bahamut for assistance. Episode Luna was a heavy, heavy departure from that concept.

As for Nomura's idea of turning the game into a musical, I kind of have to wonder if that might have been a response to team members trying to push through things he wasn't happy about. "You want an ultimate happy ending, huh? Well, I just saw Les Miserables, and I'm thinking it would be really cool if the entire game was a musical!" ;)

The start of Episode Noctis even has him fighting golden soldiers outside the citadel, mirroring the original Versus trailer. Lots of old things were seemingly repurposed for the modern iteration of the story and things they didn't think of until the game's additional content came out. IT does segment the story a lot more than it was supposed to be, but absolutely none of FFXV's "alternate" stuff I believe was ever meant to not be in the story. They just had to reinforce the story they could keep in the game. This led to a more simple tale with just one antagonist, whereas the DotF adds much Versus, FNC, pre-launch stuff and more. Lots of older interviews really make sense with some of the new DotF stuff, and the datamine itself has a lot of content that makes sense. Even with how someone found old West Insomnia signs in Platinum Demo, we can take that the iteration of Insomnia in Platinum Demo was from the pre-2016 iteration of the game, probably around the time they could get to the end. They were rewriting the script up until launch, so it's likely that although they could go from beginning to end, the story most likely made absolutely zero sense, as old versions of each chapter would have story content that doesn't line up with changes, removed content and more.
Well, there's a difference between claiming that the core concepts of FFXV's "alternate" stuff were drawn from an earlier draft and claiming that "absolutely none of [it] was ever meant to not be in the story." Things are always added and changed when concepts are fleshed out (especially since DotF was a non-FNC version of what was clearly originally meant to rely heavily on the FNC mythos), and there was clearly a point in time after the story was edited in which the DotF material was "meant to not be in the [final] story."

As for interviews, while I agree that "lots of older interviews really make sense with some of the new DotF stuff," I think it's important to remember that some of the oldest interviews make far more sense with the final game than with DotF. DotF isn't some gold standard for what the game's vision was meant to be -- it's merely one option that was considered and eventually rejected over the course of the game's development (albeit one that part of the dev team was clearly attached to).

That sort of falls in line with that the team stated at various times about reviewing the project and seeing what could be carried over into XV. They're technically two different projects with shared DNA.
Yeah, exactly. Or, actually, it's kind of like the FFXV we got is effectively the descendant of two parent projects ("burden of responsibility" and "defying fate"), which shares some DNA with each of them but is still its own unique thing.
 

SonOfEtro

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May 2, 2016
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@Ikkin, I found something interesting. It's via https://twitter.com/RedMakuzawa, who's got a copy of the Dawn of the Future celebration box and has been offering clean art scans and translations. An interesting titbit's been revealed about "that" artwork.
D9kzeCVVAAE3UiD.jpeg
According to the caption from the artbook, this scene wasn't anything to do with Teraflare. It was Lunafreya using her "ultimate" powers to aid Noctis. Luna channeling the Astrals' power anyone?

I'm beginning to wonder how much of DotF's later narrative was XV's team and how much was Emi Nagashima expanding their draft based on a few broad strokes (which seems to be what a lot of other authorised novels by her were), since we known from the DLC tetralogy's scenario director that only the basic concept of Episode Noctis was in place and Episode Luna was unfinished when the DLC plan was cancelled.

Oh for some confirmation from the team, or an interview somehow related to the book's English release!
 
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Ikkin

Warrior of Light
Oct 30, 2016
1,099
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@Ikkin, I found something interesting. It's via https://twitter.com/RedMakuzawa, who's got a copy of the Dawn of the Future celebration box and has been offering clean art scans and translations. An interesting titbit's been revealed about "that" artwork.
View attachment 1208
According to the caption from the artbook, this scene wasn't anything to do with Teraflare. It was Lunafreya using her "ultimate" powers to aid Noctis. Luna channeling the Astrals' power anyone?

I'm beginning to wonder how much of DotF's later narrative was XV's team and how much was Emi Nagashima expanding their draft based on a few broad strokes (which seems to be what a lot of other authorised novels by her were), since we known from the DLC tetralogy's scenario director that only the basic concept of Episode Noctis was in place and Episode Luna was unfinished when the DLC plan was cancelled.

Oh for some confirmation from the team, or an interview somehow related to the book's English release!
How strange... the best summary I found doesn't mention anything about Luna using her powers to aid Noct. It mentions that, "Drained of her daemonic powers, Luna falls from the sky," but doesn't really explain what she did that drained her. Is the caption RedMakuzawa referenced implying that Luna used the power she had gained for Teraflare against Bahamut in the game draft of the story? Or, perhaps, the game draft was even further from the novel than we assumed. =/

I think you're spot on in wondering how much of the novel was based in cut concepts and how much of it was invented to fill the page count. Hopefully, the English release will offer a little more insight... even if it's having officially-translated versions of the concept art's captions!

Speaking of which...




Thanks to the increase in image quality, it's now clear that the woman in black is holding a rapier in her left hand. There's no longer any doubt that we're dealing with Stella rather than Luna. xD
 

Noctis_Caelum

Chocobo Knight
Jul 15, 2014
214
285


Thanks to the increase in image quality, it's now clear that the woman in black is holding a rapier in her left hand. There's no longer any doubt that we're dealing with Stella rather than Luna. xD
Yeah now that you're saying it she looks like Stella, also the "Final Fantasy XV" logo looks a bit photoshoped??
I mean, that artwork could be from Versus XIII or early XV.
But even if it is Luna and that artwork from XV, why is she holding a rapier??
 

Bazztek

Keyblade Master
May 26, 2014
719
1,889
How strange... the best summary I found doesn't mention anything about Luna using her powers to aid Noct. It mentions that, "Drained of her daemonic powers, Luna falls from the sky," but doesn't really explain what she did that drained her. Is the caption RedMakuzawa referenced implying that Luna used the power she had gained for Teraflare against Bahamut in the game draft of the story? Or, perhaps, the game draft was even further from the novel than we assumed. =/

I think you're spot on in wondering how much of the novel was based in cut concepts and how much of it was invented to fill the page count. Hopefully, the English release will offer a little more insight... even if it's having officially-translated versions of the concept art's captions!

Speaking of which...




Thanks to the increase in image quality, it's now clear that the woman in black is holding a rapier in her left hand. There's no longer any doubt that we're dealing with Stella rather than Luna. xD
That's Luna. That's Noct and Luna at Ardyn's funeral in DotF which is what that concept art was for. None of the DOTF art was "old art", it was all newly created even if they may have been channeling elements of older concepts. Noct is even holding Sword of the Father which was created like 2 years after Stella was already deleted from the game so why would it even be Stella? The figures on the back to the right are also the Lucis royal council wearing their head pieces which were designed specifically for Kingsglaive and then later used in the actual game.





Yeah now that you're saying it she looks like Stella, also the "Final Fantasy XV" logo looks a bit photoshoped??
I mean, that artwork could be from Versus XIII or early XV.
But even if it is Luna and that artwork from XV, why is she holding a rapier??
That looks like Ravus's weapon.



And given that Noct is holding Sword of the Father I think it's more fitting that Luna is holding Alba Leonis there, especially since the cover of DotF has Regis and Ravus on the back cover while Noct and Luna are on the front.


And even if it is a Rapier that would more likely just harken back to her prototype Stella having one, either way that art isn't Stella, it is of Luna in a concept for one of their ideas for DotF.

Likewise the concept art of Noct and Luna with children was also just an idea, not something actually fully planned out which is why they even say that the names of the children are up to the readers imagination, that art of them with kids having a picnic with Ardyn was also just a concept art piece and not actually something that the DLC would have implemented. They mentioned how when they first started planning out the DLC they asked various artists on the XV team to draw up their own interpretation of what the "ideal" future for Noct and Luna would be which is why there is various artworks of that nature.
 
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Storm

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That's Luna. That's Noct and Luna at Ardyn's funeral in DotF which is what that concept art was for. None of the DOTF art was "old art", it was all newly created even if they may have been channeling elements of older concepts. Noct is even holding Sword of the Father which was created like 2 years after Stella was already deleted from the game so why would it even be Stella? The figures on the back to the right are also the Lucis royal council wearing their head pieces which were designed specifically for Kingsglaive and then later used in the actual game.






That looks like Ravus's weapon.



And given that Noct is holding Sword of the Father I think it's more fitting that Luna is holding Alba Leonis there, especially since the cover of DotF has Regis and Ravus on the back cover while Noct and Luna are on the front.


And even if it is a Rapier that would more likely just harken back to her prototype Stella having one, either way that art isn't Stella, it is of Luna in a concept for one of their ideas for DotF.

Likewise the concept art of Noct and Luna with children was also just an idea, not something actually fully planned out which is why they even say that the names of the children are up to the readers imagination, that art of them with kids having a picnic with Ardyn was also just a concept art piece and not actually something that the DLC would have implemented. They mentioned how when they first started planning out the DLC they asked various artists on the XV team to draw up their own interpretation of what the "ideal" future for Noct and Luna would be which is why there is various artworks of that nature.
Lol i never noticed those high-priest guys near the throne