The great Final Fantasy XVI Staff Debate: Who do you want?

[BrokenHeart]

...I don't even. lol WTF?

The category "Best Director" exists in the Academy Awards for reason. In Square Enix, there's much better FF directors than Hajime Tabata. namely Kitase and Ito. Both these men have helmed FF games that have attained more critical acclaim and worldwide sales than anything Tabata has put out. We'll see if FFXV changes things, but I doubt it.

 

[Zero]

The category "Best Director" exists in the Academy Awards for reason. In Square Enix, there's much better FF directors than Hajime Tabata. namely Kitase and Ito. Both these men have helmed FF games that have attained more critical acclaim and worldwide sales than anything Tabata has put out. We'll see if FFXV changes things, but I doubt it.

I'm not arguing directors with you. I'm actually not even interested in this topic enough to debate that. It's just the Metacritc thing. Crisis Core is one of the best games Square has ever put out. It doesn't matter what it sold and sure as hell not what its Metacritic score is, lol. Do you realize how utterly ridiculous you sound bringing a fucking joke like Metacritic into your arguments? In a thread about Japanese games, on a site focused on FF at that? Do you want to play good games, or do you want to play what scores well and appeals to the mainstream? Because, for one, Japanese games are no longer mainstream (I guessed you've missed that memo for the last 7 years or so), and secondly, those two certainly DO NOT always go hand and hand, especially not on Metacritic. You've made a few good and well-informed posts but that one, quite frankly, blew my god damn mind.

 

[BrokenHeart]

I'm not arguing directors with you. I'm actually not even interested in this topic enough to debate that. It's just the Metacritc thing. Crisis Core is one of the best games Square has ever put out. It doesn't matter what it sold and sure as hell not what its Metacritic score is, lol. Do you realize how utterly ridiculous you sound bringing a fucking joke like Metacritic into your arguments? Do you want to play good games, or do you want to play what scores well and appeals to the mainstream? Because those two certainly DO NOT always go hand and hand, especially not on Metacritic. You've made a few good and well-informed posts but that one, quite frankly, blew my god damn mind.

I'm actually an advocate for Metacritic and use it frequently to assess if a game is good or not before I drop $60 on it. I don't know why the website gets so much bad rep. Maybe some you are upset a game you love didn't get critical acclaim? Doesn't matter, as even some games with low Metacritic scores get one or two high critic reviews.

Also, Metacritic itself is not the point of interest. Rather, it's the fact it acts as a gateway to all critic reviews for a game. You can therefore get a broad outlook on a game's reception. Crisis Core may be almighty in your eyes, but the overall critical acclaim doesn't reflect that. Go to the Metacritic page for the game and you'll find some critics weren't wholly sold on the game, as they found faults with it. Therefore, the director of FFXVI needs to be somebody that can make a game that will receive universal acclaim. A game that every critic will praise and therefore get the mainstream interested in purchasing it, not just the diehard FF fan or JRPG fan. Going off the Metacritic review scores to all game's Tabata's directed, he's just not that director. Seriously, just look at the average Metacritic score for this and this.

Hiroyuki Ito as director, on the other hand...

 

[Zero]

I'm actually an advocate for Metacritic and use it frequently to assess if a game is good or not before I drop $60 on it.

If I were done with my coffee I would have stopped reading there, lol.

Also, Metacritic itself is not the point of interest. Rather, it's the fact it acts as a gateway to all critic reviews for a game. You can therefore get a broad outlook on a game's reception.

Yeah, man, I know what Metacritic is. I don't bash things that I don't know anything about. It's gateway alright, a gateway to a ton of gaming outlets that are made up of 90% shit critics. Every now and then there's a jewel in the ruff at those outlets but it's a really seldom occasion and that's what that remaining 10% is reserved for.

Therefore, the director of FFXVI needs to be somebody that can make a game that will receive universal acclaim. A game that every critic will praise and therefore get the mainstream interested in purchasing it, not just the diehard FF fan or JRPG fan.

So now you claim one of your main concerns is Square making money when you yourself were JUST posting about how you no longer buy FF games on day one and how you're regretting not waiting on a price drop for Type-0? Hahaha. You're just OH SO concerned with the game having the right director so that it can see massive praise and financial success, but your cheap ass isn't going support it yourself 'til it's half price :/ Between that and the Metacritic garbage you should be fired from talking... Donald Trump style.

http://www.mognetcentral.com/thread...etely-flopped-in-japan.3699/page-5#post-22614
Quote: BrokenHeart

Yeah, the way console FF games drop in price here in NYC is crazy. It first happened with FFXIII-2, but now seems to be a regular event. That's why I no longer buy FF games on day one. I made an exception for Type-0 HD because I really wanted FFXV: Episode Duscae, but I'm already regretting it, as I know in a few weeks it will $30 in some Brooklyn retailers.

And the only time Metacritic will reflect a FF game that every critic has praised and therefore gotten the mainstream interested in purchasing is when they make a full-blown western RPG clone like Skyrim or something. And when and if that happens, well, it'll no longer be Final Fantasy.

Gaming is too big and set in its ways in the western world now for a FF game to stay true to itself and achieve what you're hoping for. There are too many cultural differences in what the majority of western gamers prefer and what Japan does. Final Fantasy IX and XII reviews in the west were done at a time when Japanese games still reigned supreme worldwide. We live in much different times now.

In my opinion you're way too obsessed with numbers. If you truly love video games and Final Fantasy you should be most concerned with having good gaming experiences. The first step in realizing what those are is facing the fact that Metacritic and critics in general don't necessarily determine that, specifically when it comes to a niche genre. You hold things against Crisis Core that are completely unreasonable. Imagine if Lunar: Silver Star, one of the best RPGs of all time, had never landed on any other platform than Sega CD; It would have nowhere near the recognition, acclaim and legacy that it enjoys now. Crisis Core was released exclusively on a niche console, a handheld one at that, right in the midst of the steep fall of Japanese gaming popularity in the west.

 

[BrokenHeart]

He finally got around to accepting my follow request!

Well, actually he accepted over a week ago and we've spoken a bit since then. I must say, it was a privilege to finally speak directly to writer of this thread. I know a select few don't like him on this forum due to claims he was rude and insulting, but he seems like a nice guy over on Twitter. When I asked why he left, he merely replied that he didn't want to be around where he was hated. Seems like a fair reason to me.

Anyway, I've asked him about his FFXVI thread and he said he's actually compiled even more points since it was posted. I would link some of his tweets, but his Twitter account is protected, so I think he doesn't want some people viewing his feed. Considering he once posted here, I recently asked him for permission to post an email he sent me, to which he agreed. It's basically an update on his views on FFXVI. Seeing as I see nobody else making posts about a potential FFXVI by Hiroyuki Ito, I think this thread will be a good contribution to this forum. All the blue text below is the copied & pasted words of 1Truth2Lies. If you don't want to read his views, now is the time to exit the thread.

So about my FFXVI thread? Man, where to start...

It took me a while to type up that thread in a presentable manner and even gather all the info for it. I actually first began compiling info on Ito and FFXIV (which is what I called his game before XIV was announced and Versus renamed XV) all the way back in January 2009. There were many more points of evidence I had, but I just couldn't find the sources anymore or just couldn't remember the webpages or magazine issues they were from. Therefore, in order for make the article more credible, I only included points that I still had sources for. The only points without a source I left were the ones with info that I was told in person, as I am the source of those points, if you get what I mean. Had I included every point I remember, even those where I couldn't find or remember the sources, the list of points would have been over 50 in that thread.

That thread is outdated, anyway. I've discovered more points since then. For example, in January 2015, I asked Toshiyuki Itahana via Twitter PM about Hiroyuki Ito and why his next game after FFXII is taking so long. He replied saying (English translation), "Ito-san is a very ambitious creator when it comes to gameplay systems and needs a lot of time to perfect what he's making." I then responded saying, "FFIX took less than 2 years to make, though." Itahana replied, "Yes, but FFXII had much more ambitious gameplay systems and took him over 5 years." I responded back saying, "That's true. I will keep patiently awaiting the announcement. I really want to play a new game from him." To which Itahana replied back, "So do I."

When you add points like the above to my current list of points, it really makes it clear that Ito is working on something big behind the scenes. For this reason, I'm 90% sure that Ito and the FFXII team are working on FFXVI right this moment. It's not fully clear to me, though. That missing 10% is due to me not knowing what Business Division Ito and the FFXII team are based in. Also, I'm unsure just how much of the FFXII staff are still tied to FFXIV ARR. The expansion FFXIV: Heavensward should result in the game getting a development team reduction. Therefore, many FFXII staff should be given back to Ito, if they weren't already when the original FFXIV: A Realm Reborn released in August 2013.

Recently, one thing has become clear to me, though. That is FFXV is just a facade to cover up a much more grandiose and ambitious game being worked on behind the scenes, which is FFXVI by Ito. I have no idea why this approach was decided upon by Square Enix management, but people that think Square Enix view FFXV as the saviour of the mainline FF series are very mistaken. Square Enix have a trump card and it's FFXVI. The purpose of VersusXIII becoming FFXV and moving to PS4/XB1 was to provide Ito with more time to make FFXVI the most ambitious JRPG it can be. They have a lot riding on it, as they see it as the game that will restore FF to being the highly regarded and respected gaming franchise it once was. VersusXIII is just being used as stop-gap, which is why it was renamed FFXV and the Type-0 team put on it. The real megaton for the FF series this gen will be FFXVI, as it will have Ito directing and the FFXII team developing it.

 

[Rezon]

IIT: Delusion.

 

[BrokenHeart]

Yeah, man, I know what Metacritic is. I don't bash things that I don't know anything about. It's gateway alright, a gateway to a ton of gaming outlets that are made up of 90% shit critics. Every now and then there's a jewel in the ruff at those outlets but it's a really seldom occasion and that's what that remaining 10% is reserved for.

If you actually read all the reviews for the game you're interested in, you wouldn't hate Metacritic so much. I think it's good that Metacritic is a place where all the reviews are gathered in one place. Many people will of course only put weight in the Metacritic score and not read reviews, but that's how the world is. Deal with it. When something costs time and money, people will want to know if they should invest. Is this piece of entertainment it worth my time and money? That's what Metacritic answers. It's only because not everybody has time to read every review and compare the opinions, so they just go off the Metacritic score. I actually read almost every review for a game I'm interested in, because I want to know the differences in opinions and where they may agree. Personally, when it comes to gaming reviews, the outlet I put most trust in is Edge Magazine.

So now you claim one of your main concerns is Square making money when you yourself were JUST posting about how you no longer buy FF games on day one and how you're regretting not waiting on a price drop for Type-0? Hahaha. You're just OH SO concerned with the game having the right director so that it can see massive praise and financial success, but your cheap ass isn't going support it yourself 'til it's half price :/ Between that and the Metacritic garbage you should be fired from talking... Donald Trump style.

Please stop with the hostility. I'm not starting beef with you. I don't know why you're getting rude all of a sudden.

Why would anybody buy anything full price at release if they know it will be much cheaper in only a few weeks? Also, I will gladly buy a FF game day one provided it obtains universal critical acclaim and I'm already interested in it. Doing so will ensure the game attains the great sales it deserves. I'm not going to buy an average or shitty FF game on day one when I know it will be cheaper in a few weeks. I'm not that zealous a fan. If that's the type of person you are, you need to broaden your gaming horizons.

And the only time Metacritic will reflect a FF game that every critic has praised and therefore gotten the mainstream interested in purchasing is when they make a full-blown western RPG clone like Skyrim or something. And when and if that happens, well, it'll no longer be Final Fantasy.

Gaming is too big and set in its ways in the western world now for a FF game to stay true to itself and achieve what you're hoping for. There are too many cultural differences in what the majority of western gamers prefer and what Japan does. Final Fantasy IX and XII reviews in the west were done at a time when Japanese games still reigned supreme worldwide. We live in much different times now.

Disagree, and if that' how you view Metacritic, you're gravely mistaken. Xenoblade got critical acclaim and didn't feel like a WRPG at all. If anything, it felt like an evolution of FFXII. Therefore, FF can easily obtain critical acclaim while still having its own identity. It just needs really fun, well made, and forward-thinking gameplay and also great storytelling. It's that simple. As long as it obtains universal critical acclaim, the sales will follow. The success of The Last of Us is a testament to that. You don't need to be a FPS to rope in the Western mainstream. Just make a really, really good product. Nobody is going to not want to play a game that almost every critic calls "The greatest RPG ever made." It's that sort of acclaim FFXVI needs to aim for. Something that will attract mainstream people and make them want them to buy the game. That, plus a massive advertising campaign, is how FFXVI will stand any chance of selling 10+ million worldwide.The zealous FF fan will buy a mainline FF regardless of what the critics say about it. However, the amount of zealous FF fans have really shrunk in recent years, as the sales of Type-0 HD proves.

 

[Squirrel Emperor]

Alright gal, the gig is up.

 

[BrokenHeart]

Alright gal, the gig is up.

I knew people would react like this. I was telling 1Truth2Lies how people here were thinking I was his alt due to my manner of posting. He said that I should take it as compliment. Hahaha.

 

[Lulcielid]

Could we just stop with this?, its in the past, let it go plz.

 

[BrokenHeart]

Could we just stop with this?, its in the past, let it go plz.

I'm with you there. The accusations of being an alt of 1Truth2Lies were initially annoying, but I've got used to them now. I actually don't even mind it much now, especially seeing as I've spoken him and he seems like a nice guy. The only thing I'm conscientious about is taking credit for positive things that he's done or the blame for negative things.

Anyway, the reason I made this thread was just to update people here about his views on FFXVI. He really seems to be the main guy playing detective on the game's development, so I wanted to post an update on his findings, with his permission, of course. The fact he said I could post that email here must means he still has a positive opinion of this place.

 

[buddhafied]

Whether 1T2L's analysis or assumptions are logical or sound, I don't really care. Nor that he ever personally offended me so I can't say anything about that either. But may I ask to be more choosing of what topic or thread that is started on this forum. I am a bit irritated with thread that says: "so-and-so says he's XX% sure about something-something". I know this is not newsroom, but with so much speculations, uncertainties and not direct sources, we mind as well start topics like "My grandmother is 30% sure the next Kingdom Heart has Star Wars reference!"

Granted, I know there were more information given in the OP and this is not yet another "This guy said it on Twitter" post, but we have generic thread for this sort of stuff. If you feel that doesn't serve your purpose, then maybe start a topic called "1Truth2Lies Speculation thread" or "FFXV Speculation Thread".

</old man rant>

 

[APZonerunner]

I firmly believe there's a strong chance of Ito being in charge of FF16, but "the FF12 team" doesn't even exist any more. It's meaningless. They were scattered to the wind and ended up on myriad projects from mobile to FF13 and even Crystal Chronicles. Many more of them left the company in the following, difficult years. If Ito is (or is planning to) putting together a new team is another question entirely.

Also, FF15 isn't a distraction/cover up of anything. It's probably going to come down as the most expensive game SE has ever made and is a huge, save-the-brand bet for them. It's no distraction.

I'm gonna merge this into the 'Who do you want on FF16' thread as it's basically the same topic.

 

[BladeRunner]

Seriously, I have to ask, what's the point of this?
Almost everyone already agrees that Ito is very likely working on FFXVI. Either based on 1T2L's thread or just the sheer probability (no one else is really "available"). What he says in that email isn't in any way groundbreaking info and isn't very different from all the points in his thread. I understand that you're a fan of Ito and are excited for his next game, but seriously at this point there's little to talk about.

Just let it go until there's some actual info on FFXVI. I really don't see a point in discussing the exact same thing over and over and over and over again.

And the last paragraph is pure wishful thinking. He just doesn't like the current vision of FFXV and makes up a completely groundless conspiracy theory.

 

[Zero]

If you actually read all the reviews for the game you're interested in, you wouldn't hate Metacritic so much.

I read plenty of game reviews from sites that are affiliated with Metacritic and I still feel the same about it overall. That's the difference between you and I, though. Just because I read them and see that most of them are good or bad for a certain game doesn't determine at all whether or not I buy it. I'm just not that ignorant I guess. Aside from a few select gaming journalists who contribute to those sites, I mostly just read 'em out of curiosity or junkfood for the brain.

When something costs time and money, people will want to know if they should invest. Is this piece of entertainment it worth my time and money?

The same thing can easily be said for games on there that are completely overrated, causing people to waste their money.

Why would anybody buy anything full price at release if they know it will be much cheaper in only a few weeks?

It's called support for a series or a company that you're a fan of.

Also, I will gladly buy a FF game day one provided it obtains universal critical acclaim and I'm already interested in it. Doing so will ensure the game attains the great sales it deserves. I'm not going to buy an average or shitty FF game on day one when I know it will be cheaper in a few weeks.

That the thing, though. If you only go by Metacritic bullshit and numbers, you're going to miss out on good games and ones that are from developers you're a fan of that deserve the support.

I'm not that zealous a fan. If that's the type of person you are, you need to broaden your gaming horizons.

It has nothing to do with being a zealous fan. There are plenty of games, even from Square, many of 'em, in fact, that I don't buy at all. I firstly buy a game based upon whether or not it looks interesting to me personally, not if it'll appeal to the masses or not. After that it's a combination of select gaming critics who know the game or genre's audience well and who have gained my trust & respect and who I've determined I share the same taste with over the years. It's actually not even always critics who's opinions I go by. It's often times a podcaster, a YouTuber or an old school ex gaming journalist.

Disagree, and if that' how you view Metacritic, you're gravely mistaken. Xenoblade got critical acclaim and didn't feel like a WRPG at all.

Heh, well yeah, duh, of course it's not always going to be absolute. Unlike yourself, I don't actually believe that Metacritic is ALWAYS unjust. But you definitely come off as if a game doesn't go over well on Metacritic then it's just not a good game or worth my money because the scores they reflect are always right.

It's that simple. As long as it obtains universal critical acclaim, the sales will follow. The success of The Last of Us is a testament to that. You don't need to be a FPS to rope in the Western mainstream. Just make a really, really good product.

I don't even know why you brought third and first-person shooters into this to be honest. I never said anything about them. I mentioned Skyrim because it's an RPG and we're basically discussing Japanese RPG's and Metacritc.

Anyway, I don't think we're really going anywhere with this. You seem like a dude who's stone-cold set in your ways of determining what a good game is and I'm honestly burnt out on discussing it. End of conversation on my part. Have fun.

 

[BrokenHeart]

I firmly believe there's a strong chance of Ito being in charge of FF16, but "the FF12 team" doesn't even exist any more. It's meaningless. They were scattered to the wind and ended up on myriad projects from mobile to FF13 and even Crystal Chronicles. Many more of them left the company in the following, difficult years. If Ito is (or is planning to) putting together a new team is another question entirely.

Also, FF15 isn't a distraction/cover up of anything. It's probably going to come down as the most expensive game SE has ever made and is a huge, save-the-brand bet for them. It's no distraction.

I'm gonna merge this into the 'Who do you want on FF16' thread as it's basically the same topic.

Well, again according to the 1Truth2Lies speculation thread, there was a quote from Kitase that said a FFXII HD Remaster being made was dependant on the FFXII team. Therefore, it's safe to assume the core of that team is still intact.

Meanwhile, as Final Fantasy 10 and 10-2 are getting the HD remake treatment, some have wondered whether Final Fantasy 12 is next in-line for a fresh coat of paint. "I haven't heard there is a plan," Kitase said of the potential project. "It depends on the team who created 12. If they think it's a good idea they might opt for it."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-02-17-a-chat-about-that-final-fantasy-7-remake

As for FFXV not being used to buy FFXVI more development time, I agree with you. However, I also agree with the belief that VersusXIII only become FFXV because the original FFXIV bombed and the real FFXV wasn't ready yet.

 

[BrokenHeart]

It has nothing to do with being a zealous fan. There are plenty of games, even from Square, many of 'em, in fact, that I don't buy at all. I firstly buy a game based upon whether or not it looks interesting to me personally, not if it'll appeal to the masses or not. After that it's a combination of select gaming critics who know the game or genre's audience well and who have gained my trust & respect and who I've determined I share the same taste with over the years. It's actually not even always critics who's opinions I go by. It's often times a podcaster, a YouTuber or an old school ex gaming journalist.

I respect your approach and wish more people adopted it. However, we have to agree that not everybody that plans to buy a game is going to research so thoroughly before deciding to buy it ot not. That's how Metacritic scores gained so much prominence. I personally wish more people took a approach similar to yours, but that's just going to happen with the busy lifestyles many people have.

Anyway, I don't think we're really going anywhere with this. You seem like a dude who's stone-cold set in your ways of determining what a good game is and I'm honestly burnt out on discussing it. End of conversation on my part. Have fun.

You chose an interesting time to walk out on the discussion. Just when I began to agree with your approach. Well, I hope you read this message and see this conversation ended on a positive note.

 

[Zero]

I respect your approach and wish more people adopted it. However, we have to agree that not everybody that plans to buy a game is going to research so thoroughly before deciding to buy it ot not. That's how Metacritic scores gained so much prominence. I personally wish more people took a approach similar to yours, but that's just going to happen with the busy lifestyles many people have.


You chose an interesting time to walk out on the discussion. Just when I began to agree with your approach. Well, I hope you read this message and see this conversation ended on a positive note.

We can continue over PM if you want but I don't think this thread is the place for it. I'm taking a break from it for today, nonetheless

 

[APZonerunner]

Well, again according to the 1Truth2Lies speculation thread, there was a quote from Kitase that said a FFXII HD Remaster being made was dependant on the FFXII team. Therefore, it's safe to assume the core of that team is still intact.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-02-17-a-chat-about-that-final-fantasy-7-remake

As for FFXV not being used to buy FFXVI more development time, I agree with you. However, I also agree with the belief that VersusXIII only become FFXV because the original FFXIV bombed and the real FFXV wasn't ready yet.

He just means it depends on the top members of FF12 who are still at the company. Ito, for instance, had final sign off on Zidane, Kuja, Vaan and Gabranth's move sets, design and animations in Dissidia because they were from 'his' games. He's credited in the game for this guidance and there's a few interviews where people talk about his input. He told the animator he picked his favourite victory pose from FF12 for Vaan, for instance.

It doesn't mean that team remotely exists any more. The FF13 team dissolved, for instance, but I'm sure Kitase & co are looking at anything with Lightning on it, the same way the decision to remaster FF10 was his, and the project overseen by he and Toriyama while others did the real work.

The team is gone. What the hell do you think they've done for the last decade? If you go digging, there's straight up Famitsu quotes from Ito himself around the time of the Zodiac release saying he had to pull a small team back together to make that version, because the core team had already disbanded.

I don't know where people get the idea that Square Enix's teams have a rigid and absolute structure from, but it could not be further from the truth. Teams come into existence and disband fluidly, but sometimes some partnerships (IE Kitase/Toriyama) follow through from project to project because they work. The teams still disband though.

 

[Squirrel Emperor]

The team is gone. What the hell do you think they've done for the last decade? If you go digging, there's straight up Famitsu quotes from Ito himself around the time of the Zodiac release saying he had to pull a small team back together to make that version, because the core team had already disbanded.

You'd think people would realize something wasn't right here after so many years of silence.