1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hello! Join Us here on Mognet Central & be part of one of the best FF & RPG communities around! You can even sign up with your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Steam Account, Kupo!

Just How Much Content Should Be Added For the Game to Feel Complete?

Discussion in 'Final Fantasy XV - Spoiler Discussion' started by Jubileus, Jan 8, 2017.

Registered Members don't see ads. Sign up! It's Free!

  1. Jenova

    Jenova ShinRa SOLDIER

    Messages:
    613
    Likes Received:
    372
    Trophy Points:
    152
    Does anyone remember when sarcasm was in high demand and all the rage? Pepperidge farms remembers...
     
  2. Ikkin

    Ikkin ShinRa SOLDIER

    Messages:
    571
    Likes Received:
    523
    Trophy Points:
    170
    Since I haven't really done this yet, here's my own list of things I'd like to see in FFXV:

    For the most easy-to-include requests:
    * The option to make field music play more often.
    * The option to play the radio everywhere (apart from cutscenes). For bonus points, it'd be great to have the option to create a few different playlists to flip through depending on what I was doing in the game... or even automatic switching between playlists for exploration, battles, and dungeons.
    * A news station on the radio that allows you to listen to all of the story-relevant radio broadcasts while exploring.
    * A "realistic" mode with penalties for going too long without making camp. Or just patch it into the game like the no-regen-in-dungeons thing, since there's no reason not to enforce camping now that the Nixperience Band is a thing and it would actually fit the road trip theme more.
    * Rebalanced summon odds. Ramuh can still be the most common, but it's weird for him to show up 90% of the time.
    * Swimsuits, lol.

    And some more complicated requests:
    * A full bestiary, because that's a no-brainer.
    * The ability to accept and turn in hunts via cell phone. For bonus points, Noct uploads a picture of the dead monster as evidence that his work is done. ;)
    * Encounter select. I'd love to be able to go back and replay particularly memorable scenarios at will.
    * The ability to decorate Cape Caem with souvenirs from different places in the game or by changing the color of the walls/floor. It'd add to the cozy domestic feel of the area.
    * More command over party members, whether through a gambit system or the addition of full party positioning commands (Fall Back, Use Magic, Revive Ally, etc.). If the latter option is chosen, turning the ally technique slot into a pause-enabled menu including multiple options to allow easy access to all of them would be fantastic. Maybe make an Ascension Grid section for the new techniques.
    * More cutscenes with Luna. In particular, it'd be nice to have "near miss" cutscenes showing Luna and Gentiana hanging out in different parts of Altissia just before you get there, to foster more of a connection with Luna before the game takes her away, as well as a couple of scenes showing Luna and Noct being normal kids together (including at least one involving Sylleblossoms and flower crowns, both for the symbolism and the sheer adorable factor).
    * "Surveillance footage" cutscenes in Chapter 13 showing what happened to Iedolas and Ravus (preferably, "Ardyn happened") after you find them. There's a surveillance room, so it's not much of a stretch.

    I think that's about it for stuff that could be added without changing canon all too much. xD;
     
    Noctis_Caelum and Jubileus like this.
  3. Lulcielid

    Lulcielid Turk

    Messages:
    3,421
    Likes Received:
    1,958
    Trophy Points:
    403
    Just a wild idea that I don´t think canon would make it work :woot::

    Since the Astrals can aid you during battle I was think...what if Ifrit would under certain conditions come up during battles and fight againts you for a short period of time as a "super boss" and after a short time he dissapears (all of this before chapter 14 of course).
     
    Storm likes this.
  4. Hey Everyone

    Hey Everyone ShinRa SOLDIER

    Messages:
    730
    Likes Received:
    140
    Trophy Points:
    150
    Jenova I think they are better off making off making a new game at this point, I myself have never heard of patching a game into another game.
     
  5. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

    Messages:
    1,394
    Likes Received:
    997
    Trophy Points:
    255
    I definitely agree with these ideas, the last one is great since I never thought of that.

    The surveillance footage could be in the room where you have to turn the 3 nodes on and off to activate different pathways to progress. It's a good way to add in more without disrupting the original scenarios as is.
     
  6. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

    Messages:
    1,394
    Likes Received:
    997
    Trophy Points:
    255
    So upon further reading other peoples threads and posts across various websites, the inclusion of the "Shiva dungeon" is still very much a hot topic.

    Youtube videos showing players glitching their way down the railroad and exploring the snowy world underneath near Shiva's corpse has increased the demand even more judging from the comments, from both those who enjoyed, or didn't enjoy, the game.

    So what are your thoughts on this?

    The demands go along the lines of "I want to fight Shiva", and "I want to explore the snowy fields of Niflheim." I can personally see the latter demand being addressed within the Prompto DLC, however people want it to be possible in the main game itself too.

    If they were to add the Shiva fight, dungeon, and explorable snowy fields into the game to meet this demand, it would, without a doubt, completely change the original scenario for what happens in the chapter. I see no way to go about it (which means those who don't update the game via the internet will be stuck with the original scenario printed on the disc - if this happens at all).

    In the game, Shiva willingly appears before Noctis and hands him the Trident of the Oracle.

    I can't think of a way for SE to include all of these additions and for it to make sense with what happens before and after, if they should include it at all.

    Thoughts anyone?
     
  7. Nova

    Nova AVALANCHE Warrior

    Messages:
    1,224
    Likes Received:
    1,441
    Trophy Points:
    290
    Before i'll add, i kinda take back what i said about people's demand for an explorable Nifilheim.

    But on this subject, while adding a dungeon and an explorable snow area would be cool (cause seriously chapter 12 and 11 were short AF), its hard to imagine how they'd go at it without feeling like filler while keeping the current scenario unchanged. Its more of, i'd like it a lot, but not to the point where people would bring up new complaints.

    It all comes down to execution really, especially since...

    ...adding a dungeon would beg to question of what the party would be looking for anyway, since Gentiana!Shiva already gives you a royal weapon which probably would have been the discovery initially.
     
  8. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

    Messages:
    1,394
    Likes Received:
    997
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Pretty much this.

    As much as I'd like for a Shiva fight, dungeon and explorable area to be possible in this specific chapter, I'm not sure it would make sense to include these things with the scenario the way it is now.

    Only thing they can do, if they decide to take on the challenge of adding these things, is to completely redo the chapter and change the cutscenes and scenario. Not sure how well received this will be, since I can hear people saying things like "Omg I regret buying this incomplete game on Day 1. How dare they release an unfinished game."

    But then again... people are already saying this.

    You're right in that Ch11 and 12 were too short. I'm gonna throw Ch10 in there as well since expanding Cartanica in this specific chapter is doable and would make sense. To stretch it a bit, making the surrounding areas of Niflheim explorable would also be possible.

    To clarify these additions would only make sense in Ch10, since the Malboro dungeon is physically quite far from the train station.
     
  9. Storm

    Storm AVALANCHE Warrior

    Messages:
    1,721
    Likes Received:
    2,172
    Trophy Points:
    295
    i don't see the need to change the story to fit shiva's dungeon

    the main point is that she's dead and the bros need the aid of the summons, they went in to check if she was really dead and find nothing, this would build tension to the reveal of gentiana as shiva in the train (that would be technically shiva's trial, a trial of faith in midst of cold and unhopeful hearts); the end.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
  10. Lulcielid

    Lulcielid Turk

    Messages:
    3,421
    Likes Received:
    1,958
    Trophy Points:
    403
    On the topic of adding more areas, I was think from all the possible demmands:
    • Which ones are "crutial/needed" aditions?
    • Which ones are just simple desires from the arbitrary mindset of "a (j/w)RPG must have this amount of dungeon, towns, areas, square meters, otherwise it´s dissapointing"?
     
  11. Ikkin

    Ikkin ShinRa SOLDIER

    Messages:
    571
    Likes Received:
    523
    Trophy Points:
    170
    It wouldn't even need that much story relevance, really. Just have a daemon run off with a train part, and use exploration dialogue in the dungeon itself to justify its existence in the narrative. *shrugs*
     
    Jubileus, Nova and Storm like this.
  12. Noctis_Caelum

    Noctis_Caelum PSICOM Soldier

    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    80
    What I really want to see besides the Season Pass DLC is...
    - Bestary, cutscene-player, character-viewer (Why is it not in the game, just can't understand. This is a must-have by how detailed the monsters and characters look like and you just can't catch every single detail in battles)
    - More music in your car radio (like FF IV addon, X-2, XIII-2, LR and more from I-X)
    - More World of Ruin areas (like VI, finding your friends - Ignis in Caem, Gladio in Lestallum, Prompto in Hammerhead)
    - More story about Solheim (how it looked like), starscourge (how it covers Eos and explaning more about these particles, not just noted in books) and the gods-war (just a cutscene is enough)
    - More backstory on the astral (how they created the ring and the crystal)
    - Showing old Iris, Cindy, Cor ect.
    - Actually showing us what happened to Ravus, Idolas and Vestael (more cutscenes and battles)
    - Same as for Luna (more cutscenes, especially the one from the Dawn trailer Luna as a kid)
    - Aranea, Iris and Cor are always your guest members and you can choose them at a certain point of story
    - Explorable Tenebrae, Catarnica and more Altissia (at least the palace)
    - Showing Niflheim how it actually looks like from above (just like the CG scene in Insomnia)
    - More badass ring-magic like Gravit/Demi (Iron Giant can do it), Meteor, Ultima, Flare or some new spells

    So hope one of these point is the unannounced expansion what Tabata talked about.
     
  13. Jenova

    Jenova ShinRa SOLDIER

    Messages:
    613
    Likes Received:
    372
    Trophy Points:
    152
    I still believe my additions would truly fix this game. *cough*
     
  14. Lulcielid

    Lulcielid Turk

    Messages:
    3,421
    Likes Received:
    1,958
    Trophy Points:
    403
    The question on whether the execution quality would be on par with the concept quality is still uncertain.
     
  15. Jubileus

    Jubileus AVALANCHE Warrior

    Messages:
    1,394
    Likes Received:
    997
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Just thinking out loud here because I genuinely don't know the answer to this: do SE devs frequent this forum and read the stuff posted on here?

    I mean there are great ideas in this thread and the official forum is still down so quite curious.
     
  16. Lulcielid

    Lulcielid Turk

    Messages:
    3,421
    Likes Received:
    1,958
    Trophy Points:
    403
    I doubt it, this forum has only over 1k members and doesn't have too much traffic and active users.
    They most likely look at NeoGAF, which has over +150k members and a very active userbase.
     
    Storm likes this.
  17. ScienceNonfiction

    ScienceNonfiction ShinRa SOLDIER

    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    194
    Trophy Points:
    150
    Well never mind anything I posted last week cause I just remembered they kiss at the end lol. There's some sort of love or romance going on there. Also @Ikkin I agree with what you said about this topic like I sort of mentioned in my post earlier but also remember that
    can be fuel for obsession or can be part of obsession.

    Anyway,
    Well the supposed cut final battle mentions that it's a fourth phase, so it has to be afterwards.

    But he is purged by the ring at the end. Not sure how many times I have to say it lol. By the way, you still fight him as a human. I doubt they would take that out of the game to replace it with just a monster. There's also the fact that the game tells you numerous times "Yup, he's a human! Regular old human with demons/bad stuff inside of him!" If you want to ignore that, that's your prerogative. You're also forgetting that most of the demonic creatures you fight in the game are actually transformed humans.

    Uh, ok? These can still be fun games regardless of these "plot twists." Obviously I don't know since I never played them, but they can still have fun mechanics even if "omg you were the bad guy all along!" Just look at what we were already talking about. In MGS2 your character is practically a terrorist. Doesn't make the game mechanics any less fun. Doesn't stop me from replaying the game even though it means I'm doing a bunch of awful things in the game's world. Same with Shadow of the Colossus. You're not exactly a good guy in that game either, but that doesn't mean the game mechanics are any less fun to play.

    I never said that this was the case? Video games and board games are toys and it doesn't matter whether they're 1 year old, 2 years old, 10 years old, 100 years old, or a million years old. It doesn't matter at all how much a game or toy creator wants to push a certain theme or meaning. If the game (toy) isn;t fun, it's a bad game (toy).

    Besides, you don't have to sacrifice meaning for fun or vice versa. It's not one or the other. Look at stuff like Final Fantasy 7 or 9 (or heck, Mother 1!) that are very interesting thematically and are fun 100% of the time. It doesn't have to be a tradeoff, although a game with nice mechanics that isn't trying to "say something" will always be better than a game with bad mechanics that is. Which is why it's a lame excuse on behalf of a creator to say that they made something that isn't fun on purpose. If that's the case then they failed in my opinion, like I already said.

    On that topic, the stuff you linked to The Graveyard and Passage seem fun to me so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    As far as Shadow of the Colossus goes, idk obviously you felt very different
    but I didn't feel any negative emotions from the game at all lol. Just the thought of that seems kind of silly to me lol. The only time I felt anything close to negative from that game was the 2 or 3 enemies that weren't that big, like the dog-like ones.

    Aight thanx I didn't know that. :chocowalk:

    as for your experience with chapter 13, well I don't know what to say other than I thought it was fun :p And that's ok, we don't have to feel the same way or think the same thing about it.

    Get the MP3 player it's like 300 gil in the car shop. :)
     
  18. Ikkin

    Ikkin ShinRa SOLDIER

    Messages:
    571
    Likes Received:
    523
    Trophy Points:
    170
    It can be fuel for obsession, true, but it definitely felt more like a natural response on Noct's part to his destiny than romantic obsession. *shrugs*

    Yeah, I was just playing with hypotheticals. I'll stick with the "leak" version from now on.

    It's not that I'm ignoring what the game was saying about Ardyn; I just feel like there's a different sort of morality in play when dealing with a human who's been transformed into a monster rather than a human in a human body. There's a sense of the target having already abandoned their humanity in the former that doesn't exist in the latter.

    I guess the game could sort of work around that in Ardyn's case by implying that killing Ardyn's human body with the Royal Arms effectively killed his mind and the only thing left was a shell possessed by daemons, but it'd be tricky. And, even if it didn't undercut the more meaningful fights we already got, it'd still leave the final fight feeling hollow and thematically unnecessary. =/

    I think we need to distinguish between "playing as the bad guy" and evoking complicity through game mechanics. Raiden being "practically a terrorist" has practically nothing to do with the ways in which Kojima intentionally evokes negative emotions in the people who play MGS2 -- MGS2 doesn't really attempt to evoke complicity in the first place. Rather, Kojima created a campaign of misinformation masquerading as standard pre-release materials to trick players into thinking that they were playing as Snake, deconstructed the player himself* by unexpectedly throwing him* in the shoes of a very unappealing avatar who was also "playing as Snake," intentionally made the player uncomfortable by emasculating his* avatar, and continuously left both player and avatar adrift in a sea of misinformation that they had no hope of navigating. And most of that, I'd say, exists on a narrative rather than a mechanical level; from what I've read, Raiden is no less mechanically competent than Snake (except when he's literally stripped naked), even if players tend to feel like they're a lot less cool when playing as him. So, sure, in that case, the game mechanics themselves probably are fun most of the time.

    SotC is a bit different because it interferes with the type of enjoyment provided by puzzles, in which the frustration one feels when trying to solve the puzzle transforms into elation once one has successfully completed the puzzle. Negative emotions are necessary and even desirable to a certain extent when puzzle-solving, but they're usually designed to make overcoming the challenge feel even sweeter. And for myself and a lot of the critics who've forwarded SotC as an example of games-as-art, SotC turns the figurative fruits of victory into ashes in our mouths through its portrayal of the felling of the Colossi.

    As for the board games... The impression I get with Train is that it wouldn't work as intended if the mechanics were inherently enjoyable. It's designed to be played by people at conventions who specifically chose to experience games with an explicit mechanical meaning, so it wouldn't need that in order to convince its players to stick with it, and the point seems to be that people are willing to follow orders regardless of their source. And if I understand the game correctly, the mechanics basically amount to trying to stuff little people-figures into a model train, which would probably get pretty frustrating over the course of the game (while also evoking a tactile sort of complicity once the twist was revealed).

    The Landlord's Game is, of course, essentially Monopoly, which is kind of infamous for "breaking friendships" due to the aggravation felt by everyone other than the winner. XD; And, given that the goal was to make everyone who didn't win feel like the system was stacked against them, that lack of fun seems to have been a feature rather than a bug.

    * Pronoun gender fully intentional.

    My point was that board games have rejected being categorized as toys for a century, and the same ought to apply to video games.

    FFVII, FFIX, and Mother (as far as I'm aware) were games that dealt with their themes on an almost entirely narrative level instead of using game mechanics to portray thematic content. Saying that games should limit themselves to that is basically saying that games should abandon what makes them unique as a medium. =/

    Fine art, literature, and film are all allowed to explore emotions that are unpleasant and uncomfortable. Games should not be barred from doing the same simply because they are defined by rules and have a name that sounds like a child's plaything.

    Out of curiosity, how do you define "fun?" I'd call both of those experiences engaging, but fun doesn't really seem like the right word, especially for something as contemplative and morose as The Graveyard.

    "Fun" to me is positive emotion -- amusement, enjoyment. Being fun is one way of being engaging, but not the only way, and as long as a game is engaging in some other way, I'd argue it can be worth playing regardless of whether it's fun.

    Heh, those small Colossi were so frustrating that I didn't even feel bad taking them down. XD;

    I guess part of it might have been my mindset when going in -- I'd sought out the game because of its reputation for being melancholic and artistic, so I expected to feel bad for the Colossi. I do think that the game did a great job of evoking a sense of tragedy through its choice of music cues and that horrible moment of disempowerment when Wander gets struck by those dark serpent-like things that came out of the dead Colossi.

    No problem. ^_^

    Fair enough. XD And I did find Chapter 13 engaging, for the record, just in a more negative sort of way.

    I have it, but you can't use it on Chocobos or during fights. =(
     
    Nova likes this.
  19. All Hail King Bimpy

    All Hail King Bimpy Yevonite

    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    45
    "FFVII, FFIX, and Mother (as far as I'm aware) were games that dealt with their themes on an almost entirely narrative level instead of using game mechanics to portray thematic content. "

    But the narrative should be experienced through gameplay. Otherwise just make a CGI feature. Games before the 2000s were no where near hands on. I think Science's comparison was weird as a result. Now in 2016 gameplay and narrative are kinda excepted to come together. RPG worlds arent just static set pieces anymore on which the playable character goes flip flop until the next cutscene in which said world becomes alive. You can journey towards visual content, sometimes interact with it, that shares thematic relevance, whether it's small or big, with the larger journey or that simply supplements a character's arc/persaonility. Theme is no longer found in the cutscene scripts. Puzzle solving, injuries, character customization, traversing across level design, etc, etc (mechanics) can widen our discovery. We beome an active participant in uncovering it. But it won't always work if the gameplay doesn't match (watch dogs 2).

    If how we experience these narratives is separate from how we play through the game then there's less immersion. Secondly confusion.

    For example individual enemy AI can be tweaked to reflect their personal agendas. You can accurately reflect a character's story characterization in their gameplay stats and, conversely, the stats in their story-relevant abilities. You can have hit points, experience points, relationship values, etc, etc and justify them in universe by making us play through their details rather be expositioned to death about them (e.g. mass effect and deus ex).
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2017
  20. Ikkin

    Ikkin ShinRa SOLDIER

    Messages:
    571
    Likes Received:
    523
    Trophy Points:
    170
    Eh, I don't think that's really true. Naughty Dog's done very well for themselves on a critical level while maintaining a pretty strict separation between gameplay and narrative, and people would have probably been a lot happier with the back half of FFXV if it didn't remove gameplay options to match the narrative.

    The expectation of modern games is that the player be allowed to maintain control of their avatar as often as possible. Matching gameplay and narrative is orthogonal to that and sometimes contradicts it outright (say, in a case where the narrative calls for the player character to lack agency).
     
Registered Members don't see ads. Sign up! It's Free!

Share This Page