Members see less ads - sign up now for free and join the community!
-
This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn more.
Yeah, one is longer than the other. 
An original FF movie would do a lot better in my opinion though is what I'm getting at. It would allow them to create something without being limited by expectations of people who played the gam e it's based off of.
An original FF movie would do a lot better in my opinion though is what I'm getting at. It would allow them to create something without being limited by expectations of people who played the gam e it's based off of.
And as I edited in my last post
"You can't simply compress the story of a game and translate it into a movie by cutting several things . Pacing, dramaturgy, story, etc. need to be created in totally different ways in movies and games. A good game writer/director is not automatically a good movie/director writer."
The only thing I'd maybe like to see is a total fanservice movie. Something like a Dissidia but at the same time I somehow fear this idea. lol
Likes:
LeonBlade
Advent Children is nonsensical guff and anybody who thinks TSW is a worse movie when you take mindless fan service out of the equation is mental. At least TSW is approachable to the average viewer! It's a bad movie. TSW was a bomb, but was basically defeated by an out of control budget, uncanny valley, and the fact that it was an unremarkable post apocalyptic love story that follows all the base points one expects from such a story. It's not a bad movie, it just isn't a very interesting one. AC is straight-up bad. Most of that's down to script but the direction/cinematography isn't really up to much and either.
On this specific topic - of all the FFs, FFX would probably best adapt into a 2 hour movie, but it's besides the point, really - for an FF movie to really nail it in the West it'd need significant creative control shifted to the West to get away from the anime tropes, and SE sadly just won't do it...
On this specific topic - of all the FFs, FFX would probably best adapt into a 2 hour movie, but it's besides the point, really - for an FF movie to really nail it in the West it'd need significant creative control shifted to the West to get away from the anime tropes, and SE sadly just won't do it...
I would love to see a Final Fantasy VIII movie. Mainly due to the reason of it being so outdated and not having much art like the original Final Fantasy VII each character received full body artworks and close ups, not sure why but FFVIII cast only received close ups cg and drawn. And besides Rinoa and Squall the other cast did not star in to many CG scenes. It would be nice to see this game again. 
I don't agree with this whatsoever... Advent Children wasn't nonsensical guff in any way, the storyline is pretty straight forward and serves its purpose for the entire goal of the movie, which was to create a bunch of high action sequences with impressive cinematic quality and it was tied into the VII universe.
At least TSW was approachable... by who? It certainly didn't hold my attention when it came out... It wasn't just a bomb, it was a bomb that destroyed Square and forced them into merging with their rival just to stay alive. TSW doesn't meet the expectations of a "Final Fantasy" movie that it was branded under, there was nothing to it that was Final Fantasy. Taking the "mindless fan service out of the equation" makes AC a completely different movie... I don't see how you can compare the two and put one at a disadvantage to say that TSW is ultimately better. AC at least achieved what it was designed to do, it met expectations in reasonable ways. The storyline might not have had a deep plot, nor was the overall script anything to write home about, but at least it didn't tarnish the Final Fantasy name and destroy the company.
My point is, AC is a movie for FFVII fans, and that's exactly what it achieves at being. I just finished watching it again just before writing this, and I enjoy the movie. It's not something that should have won any awards, but it does its job at what it set out to do. The action sequences are really cool, and the visuals at the time were really good. Hell, it served as Nomura's inspiration for Versus XIII (now XV) in terms of the crazy battle sequences and effects like warping.
At least TSW was approachable... by who? It certainly didn't hold my attention when it came out... It wasn't just a bomb, it was a bomb that destroyed Square and forced them into merging with their rival just to stay alive. TSW doesn't meet the expectations of a "Final Fantasy" movie that it was branded under, there was nothing to it that was Final Fantasy. Taking the "mindless fan service out of the equation" makes AC a completely different movie... I don't see how you can compare the two and put one at a disadvantage to say that TSW is ultimately better. AC at least achieved what it was designed to do, it met expectations in reasonable ways. The storyline might not have had a deep plot, nor was the overall script anything to write home about, but at least it didn't tarnish the Final Fantasy name and destroy the company.
My point is, AC is a movie for FFVII fans, and that's exactly what it achieves at being. I just finished watching it again just before writing this, and I enjoy the movie. It's not something that should have won any awards, but it does its job at what it set out to do. The action sequences are really cool, and the visuals at the time were really good. Hell, it served as Nomura's inspiration for Versus XIII (now XV) in terms of the crazy battle sequences and effects like warping.
Likes:
Crystal Power
I just think good video game movies allow themselves to be penetrable while loyal to the games at hand; TSW is definitely that, even if for many people the use of FF traditions and tropes is too subtle and not sledgehammer enough. TSW has more to it thematically that is traditional (1-9) FF than several of the games that have come since, but I realize a lot of people don't want to scratch beyond the surface (Same sorts of people oft describe FF9 as a fan service game only, utterly missing the point). AC is nonsensical fanservice; ACC injects some additional sense but is still, IMO, a mess. It's an excuse for some cool fights - but they're cool fights that haven't even aged particularly well.
One only needs to look at the reception to both movies in the mainstream to see that: TSW has an absolutely enormous legacy in Hollywood even if it didn't do well at the box office; Roger Ebert compared it to the first movies with sound or the first movies in colour; it's that important. The tech it was showcasing just wasn't there, and that's what killed it. AC's obviously aimed at a much tighter audience and it's successful in what it does. It's an utterly unremarkable movie though and I think the Final Fantasy franchise can do a lot better than standard anime grandstanding.
As for "almost killed the company": Here's where I put the reminder that Square Enix - four companies (Square, Enix, Eidos, Taito) - is currently and has for the last six years been worth significantly less than Square alone was worth post-TSW. It didn't nearly kill anything other than the careers of Sakaguchi & Miyamoto at Square. It did a lot of damage, but the company lost more, for instance, when they shit the bed on Crystal Tools and wasted tons of money there. People love to throw around hyperbole about TSW being a death knell though. It's probably also worth noting that the main reason TSW really was such a large failure was not just its box office performance but also because a lengthy development out-of-control wasted loads of money - the same sort of problem we saw with FF13 and will likely see to an even larger extent to FF15 - where even if the game is mega-successful, it won't make as much profit as much lesser-selling games thanks to the difficult/long dev.
As for "forced the merger" - the Square / Enix merger was actually on the cards before TSW came out - TSW's problems actually caused the merger to be cancelled. Rather than merge, Enix went on to merely partner with another company (Bandai), but later, after Square displayed further longevity, the merger went ahead. The merger was on the cards before TSW even came out - but people will keep blaming the movie, I'm sure.
More on the merger timeline & TSW here: http://issuu.com/ff-avalon/docs/ff25_mag_avalon/101?e=0
One only needs to look at the reception to both movies in the mainstream to see that: TSW has an absolutely enormous legacy in Hollywood even if it didn't do well at the box office; Roger Ebert compared it to the first movies with sound or the first movies in colour; it's that important. The tech it was showcasing just wasn't there, and that's what killed it. AC's obviously aimed at a much tighter audience and it's successful in what it does. It's an utterly unremarkable movie though and I think the Final Fantasy franchise can do a lot better than standard anime grandstanding.
As for "almost killed the company": Here's where I put the reminder that Square Enix - four companies (Square, Enix, Eidos, Taito) - is currently and has for the last six years been worth significantly less than Square alone was worth post-TSW. It didn't nearly kill anything other than the careers of Sakaguchi & Miyamoto at Square. It did a lot of damage, but the company lost more, for instance, when they shit the bed on Crystal Tools and wasted tons of money there. People love to throw around hyperbole about TSW being a death knell though. It's probably also worth noting that the main reason TSW really was such a large failure was not just its box office performance but also because a lengthy development out-of-control wasted loads of money - the same sort of problem we saw with FF13 and will likely see to an even larger extent to FF15 - where even if the game is mega-successful, it won't make as much profit as much lesser-selling games thanks to the difficult/long dev.
As for "forced the merger" - the Square / Enix merger was actually on the cards before TSW came out - TSW's problems actually caused the merger to be cancelled. Rather than merge, Enix went on to merely partner with another company (Bandai), but later, after Square displayed further longevity, the merger went ahead. The merger was on the cards before TSW even came out - but people will keep blaming the movie, I'm sure.
More on the merger timeline & TSW here: http://issuu.com/ff-avalon/docs/ff25_mag_avalon/101?e=0
Likes:
Misty, Koozek and Sora96
Just nab SE's financial results from then and now, then adjust for inflation - all the results going back are available on SE's investor portal: http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/ir/
It's a lot to dig through, but it's true. It's mostly down to the fact that under Miyamoto Square was a lot more careful about investment and basically only invested in very solid products and also kept an absolutely massive cash reserve. A bit like Nintendo, actually. These days, there's not much money in the kitty and most of Square's value is tied up in other investments, like property and stuff. Square's also spending more money than they've ever spent, making a lot of big bets. There's loads tied up in ShinRa for instance just as there was in Square Pictures in 2000, but if it pays off it could be astronomically massive.
If you look at the graph below, you'll see the dent of TSW, where Net Income was in the ditch in 01/02 but operating income was actually up. The last few years, both were in the red, basically, that's the difference. Even those bad results didn't wipe as much off Square's value as was wiped off between 2010 and 2013, because there was a pretty solid bounce back and the product portfolio was arguably much stronger, as is shown (and things only got better, as KH launched and was a phenomenon in the 03/04 fiscal.)
To give you an idea of how large the difference is, though, here's Square Enix's net income for the 14/15 fiscal year was 6,598 million yen. In 02/03, during the TSW disaster, it was over 12,000 million. This is just income for the year, not worth, but I use this as an example as it was easy to find and you can see how it'd correlate with overall value.
Wada's Square was mental, though. They made a lot of sure-fire bets like one of Wada's first decrees being "make a sequel to FFX, more FF sequels more often" which made a lot of money, but they pissed away loads of money on disastrous engine and tech that arguably had a worse effect than TSW and also made some insane decisions. Wada is a man who moved the company's headquarters - at the cost of millions of yen (and Nobuo Uematsu, who left because he didn't like the new location) - because a fortune teller told him to!
It's a lot to dig through, but it's true. It's mostly down to the fact that under Miyamoto Square was a lot more careful about investment and basically only invested in very solid products and also kept an absolutely massive cash reserve. A bit like Nintendo, actually. These days, there's not much money in the kitty and most of Square's value is tied up in other investments, like property and stuff. Square's also spending more money than they've ever spent, making a lot of big bets. There's loads tied up in ShinRa for instance just as there was in Square Pictures in 2000, but if it pays off it could be astronomically massive.
If you look at the graph below, you'll see the dent of TSW, where Net Income was in the ditch in 01/02 but operating income was actually up. The last few years, both were in the red, basically, that's the difference. Even those bad results didn't wipe as much off Square's value as was wiped off between 2010 and 2013, because there was a pretty solid bounce back and the product portfolio was arguably much stronger, as is shown (and things only got better, as KH launched and was a phenomenon in the 03/04 fiscal.)
To give you an idea of how large the difference is, though, here's Square Enix's net income for the 14/15 fiscal year was 6,598 million yen. In 02/03, during the TSW disaster, it was over 12,000 million. This is just income for the year, not worth, but I use this as an example as it was easy to find and you can see how it'd correlate with overall value.
Wada's Square was mental, though. They made a lot of sure-fire bets like one of Wada's first decrees being "make a sequel to FFX, more FF sequels more often" which made a lot of money, but they pissed away loads of money on disastrous engine and tech that arguably had a worse effect than TSW and also made some insane decisions. Wada is a man who moved the company's headquarters - at the cost of millions of yen (and Nobuo Uematsu, who left because he didn't like the new location) - because a fortune teller told him to!
Last edited:
Likes:
Koozek
Just nab SE's financial results from then and now, then adjust for inflation - all the results going back are available on SE's investor portal: http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/ir/
It's a lot to dig through, but it's true. It's mostly down to the fact that under Miyamoto Square was a lot more careful about investment and basically only invested in very solid products and also kept an absolutely massive cash reserve. A bit like Nintendo, actually. These days, there's not much money in the kitty and most of Square's value is tied up in other investments, like property and stuff. Square's also spending more money than they've ever spent, making a lot of big bets. There's loads tied up in ShinRa for instance just as there was in Square Pictures in 2000, but if it pays off it could be astronomically massive.
If you look at the graph below, you'll see the dent of TSW, where Net Income was in the ditch in 01/02 but operating income was actually up. The last few years, both were in the red, basically, that's the difference. Even those bad results didn't wipe as much off Square's value as was wiped off between 2010 and 2013, because there was a pretty solid bounce back and the product portfolio was arguably much stronger, as is shown (and things only got better, as KH launched and was a phenomenon in the 03/04 fiscal.)
To give you an idea of how large the difference is, though, here's Square Enix's net income for the 14/15 fiscal year was 6,598 million yen. In 02/03, during the TSW disaster, it was over 12,000 million. This is just income for the year, not worth, but I use this as an example as it was easy to find and you can see how it'd correlate with overall value.
Wada's Square was mental, though. They made a lot of sure-fire bets like one of Wada's first decrees being "make a sequel to FFX, more FF sequels more often" which made a lot of money, but they pissed away loads of money on disastrous engine and tech that arguably had a worse effect than TSW and also made some insane decisions. Wada is a man who moved the company's headquarters - at the cost of millions of yen (and Nobuo Uematsu, who left because he didn't like the new location) - because a fortune teller told him to!
It's a lot to dig through, but it's true. It's mostly down to the fact that under Miyamoto Square was a lot more careful about investment and basically only invested in very solid products and also kept an absolutely massive cash reserve. A bit like Nintendo, actually. These days, there's not much money in the kitty and most of Square's value is tied up in other investments, like property and stuff. Square's also spending more money than they've ever spent, making a lot of big bets. There's loads tied up in ShinRa for instance just as there was in Square Pictures in 2000, but if it pays off it could be astronomically massive.
If you look at the graph below, you'll see the dent of TSW, where Net Income was in the ditch in 01/02 but operating income was actually up. The last few years, both were in the red, basically, that's the difference. Even those bad results didn't wipe as much off Square's value as was wiped off between 2010 and 2013, because there was a pretty solid bounce back and the product portfolio was arguably much stronger, as is shown (and things only got better, as KH launched and was a phenomenon in the 03/04 fiscal.)
To give you an idea of how large the difference is, though, here's Square Enix's net income for the 14/15 fiscal year was 6,598 million yen. In 02/03, during the TSW disaster, it was over 12,000 million. This is just income for the year, not worth, but I use this as an example as it was easy to find and you can see how it'd correlate with overall value.
Wada's Square was mental, though. They made a lot of sure-fire bets like one of Wada's first decrees being "make a sequel to FFX, more FF sequels more often" which made a lot of money, but they pissed away loads of money on disastrous engine and tech that arguably had a worse effect than TSW and also made some insane decisions. Wada is a man who moved the company's headquarters - at the cost of millions of yen (and Nobuo Uematsu, who left because he didn't like the new location) - because a fortune teller told him to!
They've still got loads of capital, they could acquire anybody, it just might not be wise to spend that capital. I'm not saying Square is going to go bust when I say the following, I'm just making a point about how business can be when I say -- THQ was acquiring companies as close as a 18 months from them going bankrupt - in a sense, those acquisitions were last minute bets. So, of course Square could acquire, they're in much better shape (though for a few years there they looked in serious, serious danger.) Sony selling all their shares in SE didn't help them much, mind, that was a bad dent for them this year.
RE the above, I want to say: the bottom line is this - the market cap post-TSW in 2001/02 for Square Co alone was still over 150 million. The market cap of Square Enix (w Eidos/Taito) in 2014 was 124 million. Those are the actual numbers, the actual value. The thing is, TSW was one bad decision that annihilated profits for one year but never actually really damaged the company infrastructure & value too much. A series of smaller, less costly (in a monetary sense) poor decisions are far more damaging, and that's what happened beween around 2008 and the end of Wada's tenure.
I've made this wander a bit off topic, sorry.
RE the above, I want to say: the bottom line is this - the market cap post-TSW in 2001/02 for Square Co alone was still over 150 million. The market cap of Square Enix (w Eidos/Taito) in 2014 was 124 million. Those are the actual numbers, the actual value. The thing is, TSW was one bad decision that annihilated profits for one year but never actually really damaged the company infrastructure & value too much. A series of smaller, less costly (in a monetary sense) poor decisions are far more damaging, and that's what happened beween around 2008 and the end of Wada's tenure.
I've made this wander a bit off topic, sorry.
Likes:
Sora96
I'm really glad you're not a psychiatrist.
Honestly, it's the first time I see someone consider TSW the better out of these two. And as far as it's a valid opinion, I feel like you're a bit too defensive of this movie.
Yes, TSW has a legacy (mostly as a technical achievement), but calling it absolutely enormous is absolutely ridiculous. It wasn't some underappreciated gem that just happened to flop in the box office. Critical reception was very poor and Roger Ebert was only an exception here. For the audience it was mostly a completely forgettable and boring sci-fi. Not to mention FF fans hating it because of almost non-existant FF elements (sugar-coating it by calling them "subtle" doesn't change anything).
lolwut? I hope it's just some sarcastic joke. If not then how come no one stopped him? He wasn't a dictator, someone had to approve of this decision...
On the other hand in my country we have priests bless police cars, so who am I to judge?
And more on topic:
In my opinion SE should either reconsider their approach to movies and start making them actually good, or just not make them at all.
And assuming they actually got better director and writers, what movie would I like to see? Well, surely not adaptation of any of the games' stories. FF stories are generally quite complex and long, and cutting them to fit a two-hour time frame would leave them bare bones and unsatisfying. Most of thems are also self-contained so sequels or side stories would be forced and likely not approachable by general audience. So what could work? I have two ideas:
1. A movie unrelated to any particular game (so kinda like TSW), but with all the FF elements (unlike TSW) and well written story and characters (unlike TSW).
2. FFXV movie. I'm thinking of some part of the backstory or a character's story that could stand on its own. Of course it's purely hypothetical because I don't know much of XV's story. And I know it's rather flimsy, but I believe that if the movie's story was planned in advance along with the game's story, it would at least make more sense than any of the FF sequels (including AC).
Honestly, it's the first time I see someone consider TSW the better out of these two. And as far as it's a valid opinion, I feel like you're a bit too defensive of this movie.
Yes, TSW has a legacy (mostly as a technical achievement), but calling it absolutely enormous is absolutely ridiculous. It wasn't some underappreciated gem that just happened to flop in the box office. Critical reception was very poor and Roger Ebert was only an exception here. For the audience it was mostly a completely forgettable and boring sci-fi. Not to mention FF fans hating it because of almost non-existant FF elements (sugar-coating it by calling them "subtle" doesn't change anything).
lolwut? I hope it's just some sarcastic joke. If not then how come no one stopped him? He wasn't a dictator, someone had to approve of this decision...
On the other hand in my country we have priests bless police cars, so who am I to judge?
And more on topic:
In my opinion SE should either reconsider their approach to movies and start making them actually good, or just not make them at all.
And assuming they actually got better director and writers, what movie would I like to see? Well, surely not adaptation of any of the games' stories. FF stories are generally quite complex and long, and cutting them to fit a two-hour time frame would leave them bare bones and unsatisfying. Most of thems are also self-contained so sequels or side stories would be forced and likely not approachable by general audience. So what could work? I have two ideas:
1. A movie unrelated to any particular game (so kinda like TSW), but with all the FF elements (unlike TSW) and well written story and characters (unlike TSW).
2. FFXV movie. I'm thinking of some part of the backstory or a character's story that could stand on its own. Of course it's purely hypothetical because I don't know much of XV's story. And I know it's rather flimsy, but I believe that if the movie's story was planned in advance along with the game's story, it would at least make more sense than any of the FF sequels (including AC).
Likes:
LeonBlade
In order for a movie to be good, it would have to be at least 3+hours, and Square will never provide a budget for Visual Works to do that much. I mean, just look at Advent Children; the BD version is 2 hours, and it still barely has a plot.
What has everyone speculating is that the audio drama doesn't hint at a sequel, it pretty much flat-out says that there will be one, and now it's been kept canon for the PS4 version, despite how much fans hated it. Film or game, X-3 is coming.
What has everyone speculating is that the audio drama doesn't hint at a sequel, it pretty much flat-out says that there will be one, and now it's been kept canon for the PS4 version, despite how much fans hated it. Film or game, X-3 is coming.
It depends on what you mean by FF elements, right? To me Final Fantasy isn't Chocobos, Crystals, or specific magic, big swords, or any of that. (Note: I'm the type of person who'd sooner see FF16 take a big stride & be some sort of sci-fi thing by way of Mass Effect or Star Trek, or a steampunk thing by way of Blade Runner and Deus Ex, or be something crazy different entirely (I think FF could do a great spy thriller plot) than be wars over crystals or the will of the gods again.) Those are component parts that sometimes crop up, but I'm A-OK with them being entirely absent, to be honest. Eidolons, airships, they're cool elements - but I actually think FF would be better off - in games as well - if it took large thematic leaps outside of that stuff more often.
So, yes -- TSW jettisons a lot of that and a lot of those traditions, but what remains at the absolute thematic core of the story is basically the embodiment of what Sakaguchi's Final Fantasy was often in pursuit of. TSW's themes are most similar to FF7, 9 and 6 - Sakaguchi's favourites in a story sense - the concept of two planes colliding, of a living planet, of the life force of the dead returning to the planet (and being blocked by a malicious entity) - even the ending where the trapped spirits are freed and sort of float away is (very deliberately, they've said) analogous to a science fiction version of The Sending.
Much of it is ripped directly from FF7, though a lot of people don't realize it - the 'ghosts' in TSW are a more literal (and antagonistic) representation of the forces of the Lifestream that make up Holy at the end of FF7, and the film's ruined New York City setting was actually built, initially, out of early FF7 concept art. FF7 was originally set in a future dystopic Blade Runner-esque NYC with an upper city and an under-city (present in TSW), but that became Midgar when another little upcoming game, Parasite Eve, was also set in New York - if not for PE FF7 could've been set on (an alternate version of) our planet, incredibly. Things like the Hardy Daytona are almost a hang-up from that period, when FF7 was, for a brief time, like FF15 in its 'ripped from the real world' style. The protagonist, Aki, was named for Sakaguchi's mother, who died during FF7's production and supposedly caused a major shift in that game to prompt thought about the nature of death & life force. It still has its obvious nods, too; the Chocobo cameo, the Cid character (Present as Sid) with an airship (The Black Boa, which is very reminiscent of FF8's Ragnarok), yadda yadda. It has its smaller nods, but it's more FF in theme than in specific surface-level substance.
So is it FF? Yes, absolutely. I'm one of those people who thinks FF's greatest strength is in how broad it's been (despite 9, the reverent one, being my favourite) and the entries in the series that I respect the most really are the ones that throw huge swathes of it into the trash and just run with their own stuff (FF8, born out of the same brave era as TSW, is similar - it has so little in common with the rest of the series in truth - almost half of its summons are new and mostly never seen again, there's no bloody crystals, everything's mega alien compared to everything that came before. I love it). But it's still absolutely FF, and I think that about TSW too. I have a great deal of respect for the movie's themes and ideas, even if they aren't well expressed - and those ideas are absolutely, undeniably FF to me.
On quality:
Is it underrated? Sure. Is it a gem? A great movie? Even a particularly good one? No. The dialogue is clichéd and the story, which starts out on some very interesting ground indeed, gives way to nonsense, then a paint-by-numbers back half that really is incredibly uninspired. All that stuff would've got it heavily criticised if it were a standard live-action Hollywood movie as well, but even with those problems TSW is a pretty standard mind-numbing Summer Popcorn flick. It's not terrible, but the story is uninspired (strike one), it's a videogame adaptation (strike two) and the technology just wasn't quite there and it creeped a lot of people out, though it was a technical achievement (the third, and most fatal strike - plenty of basic action movies with worse dialogue/story than TSW gross millions).
The prime difference is that I just think AC is standard-issue anime guff, doesn't do anything interesting with one of gaming's strongest and most iconic casts, and actually, in several instances, diminishes FF7. TSW is at least reaching for more, but it never makes it. AC is far better at being what it is, but what it is... is uninspired, to me, anyway. The fights are pretty but I don't feel anything because I'm not invested in any of it because the story is paper thin and arguably nonsensical and the dialogue is genuinely painfully awful.
It reminds me of the Star Wars Prequels, actually. I love Obi Wan, one of science fiction's finest, just as I love Tifa & Cloud - but I feel fuck all when I watch him fight Count Dooku or Tifa whatever that guy's name was (Loz?) for precisely the same reasons. There's no stakes, no emotion, no nothing. (AC's fights also have a really poor sense of space/location apart from the Cloud/Yazoo(?) one towards the end, which is a massive problem - the Ancients City one being the worst offender.) It's just pretty. For me, AC may as well just be another bloody Dead Fantasy. (RIP, Monty.) This is just why I don't think AC is very good, basically. I also realize that I'm a bit of a cinema nerd and so probably am holding it to a higher standard - and I also think FF7's ending was magnificent and they were foolish to ever touch it. But I get that a lot of the fanbase wanted more closure than the magnificently open-ended ending offered and that many of them aren't as bothered about crap like cinematography.
Even now, TSW's Rotton Tomatoes rating pegs it at 49% - Advent Children's sits at 33%. They're both bad movies, TSW is just IMO the better of the two.
On Legacy:
As for TSW's legacy, it is enormous, absolutely. It should be enormous to anybody on this forum anyway, as it had an astronomical effect on the way Square made games thanks to the tech/pipeline developments made in its production (and the fact it led to Visual Works), but beyond that TSW is still massively remembered. Disney, for instance, head-hunted about 20 of the top people from TSW and hired them away from the various companies they'd scattered to at great cost and put them on Tron Legacy (mostly on the young Boxleitner/Bridges stuff) because they were considered the real pioneers of 'realistic' CG animation. TSW is I think as seminal as Toy Story or The Matrix in terms of how other studios sat up, took notice, and used what it did well with CG in other ways in other movies - just the difference is it wasn't successful. It's a fairly large case study in many animation degrees and stuff now.
From Nobuo Uematsu, explaining why he left Square:
So, yes -- TSW jettisons a lot of that and a lot of those traditions, but what remains at the absolute thematic core of the story is basically the embodiment of what Sakaguchi's Final Fantasy was often in pursuit of. TSW's themes are most similar to FF7, 9 and 6 - Sakaguchi's favourites in a story sense - the concept of two planes colliding, of a living planet, of the life force of the dead returning to the planet (and being blocked by a malicious entity) - even the ending where the trapped spirits are freed and sort of float away is (very deliberately, they've said) analogous to a science fiction version of The Sending.
Much of it is ripped directly from FF7, though a lot of people don't realize it - the 'ghosts' in TSW are a more literal (and antagonistic) representation of the forces of the Lifestream that make up Holy at the end of FF7, and the film's ruined New York City setting was actually built, initially, out of early FF7 concept art. FF7 was originally set in a future dystopic Blade Runner-esque NYC with an upper city and an under-city (present in TSW), but that became Midgar when another little upcoming game, Parasite Eve, was also set in New York - if not for PE FF7 could've been set on (an alternate version of) our planet, incredibly. Things like the Hardy Daytona are almost a hang-up from that period, when FF7 was, for a brief time, like FF15 in its 'ripped from the real world' style. The protagonist, Aki, was named for Sakaguchi's mother, who died during FF7's production and supposedly caused a major shift in that game to prompt thought about the nature of death & life force. It still has its obvious nods, too; the Chocobo cameo, the Cid character (Present as Sid) with an airship (The Black Boa, which is very reminiscent of FF8's Ragnarok), yadda yadda. It has its smaller nods, but it's more FF in theme than in specific surface-level substance.
So is it FF? Yes, absolutely. I'm one of those people who thinks FF's greatest strength is in how broad it's been (despite 9, the reverent one, being my favourite) and the entries in the series that I respect the most really are the ones that throw huge swathes of it into the trash and just run with their own stuff (FF8, born out of the same brave era as TSW, is similar - it has so little in common with the rest of the series in truth - almost half of its summons are new and mostly never seen again, there's no bloody crystals, everything's mega alien compared to everything that came before. I love it). But it's still absolutely FF, and I think that about TSW too. I have a great deal of respect for the movie's themes and ideas, even if they aren't well expressed - and those ideas are absolutely, undeniably FF to me.
On quality:
Is it underrated? Sure. Is it a gem? A great movie? Even a particularly good one? No. The dialogue is clichéd and the story, which starts out on some very interesting ground indeed, gives way to nonsense, then a paint-by-numbers back half that really is incredibly uninspired. All that stuff would've got it heavily criticised if it were a standard live-action Hollywood movie as well, but even with those problems TSW is a pretty standard mind-numbing Summer Popcorn flick. It's not terrible, but the story is uninspired (strike one), it's a videogame adaptation (strike two) and the technology just wasn't quite there and it creeped a lot of people out, though it was a technical achievement (the third, and most fatal strike - plenty of basic action movies with worse dialogue/story than TSW gross millions).
The prime difference is that I just think AC is standard-issue anime guff, doesn't do anything interesting with one of gaming's strongest and most iconic casts, and actually, in several instances, diminishes FF7. TSW is at least reaching for more, but it never makes it. AC is far better at being what it is, but what it is... is uninspired, to me, anyway. The fights are pretty but I don't feel anything because I'm not invested in any of it because the story is paper thin and arguably nonsensical and the dialogue is genuinely painfully awful.
It reminds me of the Star Wars Prequels, actually. I love Obi Wan, one of science fiction's finest, just as I love Tifa & Cloud - but I feel fuck all when I watch him fight Count Dooku or Tifa whatever that guy's name was (Loz?) for precisely the same reasons. There's no stakes, no emotion, no nothing. (AC's fights also have a really poor sense of space/location apart from the Cloud/Yazoo(?) one towards the end, which is a massive problem - the Ancients City one being the worst offender.) It's just pretty. For me, AC may as well just be another bloody Dead Fantasy. (RIP, Monty.) This is just why I don't think AC is very good, basically. I also realize that I'm a bit of a cinema nerd and so probably am holding it to a higher standard - and I also think FF7's ending was magnificent and they were foolish to ever touch it. But I get that a lot of the fanbase wanted more closure than the magnificently open-ended ending offered and that many of them aren't as bothered about crap like cinematography.
Even now, TSW's Rotton Tomatoes rating pegs it at 49% - Advent Children's sits at 33%. They're both bad movies, TSW is just IMO the better of the two.
On Legacy:
As for TSW's legacy, it is enormous, absolutely. It should be enormous to anybody on this forum anyway, as it had an astronomical effect on the way Square made games thanks to the tech/pipeline developments made in its production (and the fact it led to Visual Works), but beyond that TSW is still massively remembered. Disney, for instance, head-hunted about 20 of the top people from TSW and hired them away from the various companies they'd scattered to at great cost and put them on Tron Legacy (mostly on the young Boxleitner/Bridges stuff) because they were considered the real pioneers of 'realistic' CG animation. TSW is I think as seminal as Toy Story or The Matrix in terms of how other studios sat up, took notice, and used what it did well with CG in other ways in other movies - just the difference is it wasn't successful. It's a fairly large case study in many animation degrees and stuff now.
From Nobuo Uematsu, explaining why he left Square:
"[Square Enix CEO and president Yoichi] Wada took a couple of locations to a fortune teller named Pao," said Uematsu. "Pao said the Meguro space was not going to bring any fortune to the company, and pointed to Shinjuku. That's why he decided to move it there. I heard this directly from Wada."
http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/17537 7 minutes in.
Last edited:
I can't really envision an existing Final Fantasy game being made into a movie. Especially not X. A big part of the experience was slowly discovering the world of Spira and feeling like you were on this long, epic journey with the characters. There were also so many important scenes that they wouldn't possibly be able to keep in a two-hour film, or they'd have to be cut down so much it'd miss the point, unless X was made into a series of films, which is an idea I'm not keen on either. At this point, I pretty much only want to see X returned to as a full-blown remake in the far, far distant future. As beautiful as the HD remasters are, I get a little taken out of it when I see the in-game animations and there are plenty of other elements that would benefit from more advanced technology.