Final Fantasy XV - General News Thread

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Noctis_Caelum

Chocobo Knight
Jul 15, 2014
199
269
When I see those artworks they looks beautiful, but
somehow it just hurts that Nomura couldn't do what he actually wanted and what we could get, just like the DoF Novel. :/

Perhaps someday Nomura can make his own game after FF 7 Remake, but I doubt, he's always too busy with many other things .
 

CloudBuster

Knight of Death
Feb 19, 2018
492
937
26
I mean none of the games we play are exactly what each creator originally wanted to do, this is no different.
Exactly, don't see why people are so hung up on Nomura's initial concepts when every projects goes through the same process of starting out one way and then ending up another. Only difference between Versus/FFXV and other games is that the initial concept was very publicly shown off while something like FFVII starting out as a gritty New York based detective story only became known years after the game had been released. Just think of how many people would be moaning about Sakaguchi's original vision today while trashing Kitase for ruining what they thought the game would be had that original version been shown off before they changed things up. "Ugh I want my dark New York detective fantasy, not this shitty story about a magical terrorist road trip!"
 

Vallen

SOLDIER Second Class
Mar 4, 2018
325
722
25
Exactly, don't see why people are so hung up on Nomura's initial concepts when every projects goes through the same process of starting out one way and then ending up another.
Because not every game projects cuts out what is arguably the most anticipated part of the game from the game entirely (Insomnia Invasion).
 
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Storm

Warrior of Light
Oct 26, 2013
3,107
5,455
27
Versus was the promise, XV is reality.

the older trailers showed an interesting premise (noctis x stella) and fantastic cinematic direction.

Luna is downgraded by default because nothing in her story is original and she's boring, and the way the story is told is lackluster and cheap in many segments.

They overpromised (see the target render Leviathan fight), and people expected the game to be entirely like that quality-wise.

If Versus/early XV would feature an entire story and narrative following that quality I think it would be better than XV, but also if FFXV had reached its full prime it could have been way better than whatever Nomura created, but trailers are trailers so...

we all know KH games also have amazing trailers and imagery but the story quality-wise is... special lol.

Promise X Reality

thats why early reveals are problematic.
 
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Ikkin

Warrior of Light
Oct 30, 2016
1,019
1,533
Here's something interesting from a translation of DotF's Episode Ardyn section:

The Beyond, a space connected by the Crystal, where none could ever cross over in the flesh. Two thousand years ago, when Ardyn’s soul had been rejected by the Crystal, in that instant, it had been imprisoned in the other world.

Before, he had thought his immortality the Scourge’s doing. But in truth, that he could not die was because his soul was not on this side, but in the Beyond.

[...]

Once Ardyn’s existence was extinguished to the last, Noctis would be extinguished as well. The death of the True King, the last Lucian monarch. In exchange, the Crystal that had absorbed all daemonkind would shatter, and the world would be cleansed…


[source]

This is one of those things that makes DotF's questionable relationship with canon frustrating. Because the lore details offered here... actually seem more consistent with canon than with DotF itself?

The most important implications seem to be as follows:
  1. The Beyond isn't so much a physical space inside the Crystal as it is a preexisting non-physical space connected to the physical realm by the Crystal.
  2. The assumption made amongst the English-speaking audience that Bahamut's claim, of Ardyn, that "One so impure of body and soul was deemed unworthy of the Crystal’s Light, and forbidden to ascend" meant that Ardyn's soul could not be allowed to pass on to the afterlife was... actually pretty close to the truth. Ardyn is immortal because his soul is trapped, not because he's a daemon (which makes a lot of sense, since daemons are, as a rule, not immortal).
  3. Using the power of Providence shatters the Crystal. This is consistent with the animation shown after Noct is slain on the throne, but never specifically clarified in the game itself.
  4. By imprisoning Ardyn's soul in the Beyond, the Crystal that connects the physical realm to the Beyond is able to absorb all of daemonkind... and, because of this, shattering the Crystal becomes a means to cleanse the world of the Scourge.
With regards to #1, this is a pretty blatant connection between FFXV and FNC, since the connection between the Seen and Unseen Realms are of utmost importance in the FNC mythos.

With regards to #2, the existence of this particular bit of lore in the final game's lore bible would certainly explain why the EN localization team felt comfortable using much more ambiguous language than the JP writers did -- they actually were intending to imply something more complex than Ardyn simply being unable to become King.

With regards to #3, the consistency with the animation could also suggest that we're dealing with restored lore from the final game's lore bible rather than new lore designed for Dawn of the Future.

And, with regards to #4, the mechanism by which the world is cleansed basically brings everything together in canon... including most of Episode Ardyn. Ardyn wasn't given his powers to heal people of the Scourge; they were always meant to make him a conduit for the Scourge and thereby draw it off into the Crystal where it could be destroyed all at once. Even Ardyn being intentionally freed from Angelgard shortly before the plan bore fruit makes sense under this paradigm -- by tying all of the world's Scourge to himself in his attempt to seek revenge, Ardyn unknowingly facilitates the Scourge's destruction.

The strange thing, though, is that the Ardyn-as-Scourge-conduit paradigm doesn't actually leave a lot of room for Ardyn's behavior in the alternate route to ruin Bahamut's plan. If he absorbs the Scourge, he pulls it into the Crystal, which should be the absolute best way to ensure the Scourge's destruction... so DotF!Bahamut wanting him to spread the Scourge rather than absorbing it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Even spreading the Scourge shouldn't really ruin the plan, though, because Ardyn spreading the Scourge appears to tie the Scourge to himself sufficiently to ensure its destruction when the Crystal is shattered.

Anyway, I think this particular bit of lore might be the missing piece needed to understand the logic of the ending of FFXV proper, which is... odd, but I'll take it. XD;
 

Storm

Warrior of Light
Oct 26, 2013
3,107
5,455
27
It does explain why Noctis need to sacrifice (to enter the beyond).

and thats why he absorbs all the major lucis kings, so they can enter this unseen realm as well and together strike Ardyns "last remnant".

Its a very fitting explanation, I still struggle to decide whats canon or not on DoFT.
 

SonOfEtro

SOLDIER, First Class
May 2, 2016
931
963
Anyway, I think this particular bit of lore might be the missing piece needed to understand the logic of the ending of FFXV proper, which is... odd, but I'll take it. XD;
Its a very fitting explanation, I still struggle to decide whats canon or not on DoFT.
Out of all the elements we can say is part of the canon given additional info outside DotF, I think we can make some guesses.

*Since it is technically the divergence point, I think Ardyn's section up to the meeting with Bahamut can be taken as compatible with canon (with the canon choice, as confirmed by developers, to be agreeing with Bahamut's plan).
*Ardyn being tied to the Crystal, and all the lore surrounding it, does fit into what happens during XV's ending as Ikkin said above. If you watch the final CGI cinematic, it is a gigantic explosion that destroys the inside of the throne room after Noctis sacrifices himself. The next immediate scene is a visualisation of Noctis traversing the gate/passage/whatever to the "beyond".
*I think we can take Aranea's section as canon, barring perhaps the bit about Sol, simply due to how fitting it is for her as a character and how it ties up the unresolved fate of Loqi. It also sounds just like Ardyn.
*Noctis's contemplation also seems fitting within the canon. It only diverges based on Luna's actions in her section.

Those bits are what I think would constitute acceptable in canon, while the rest really only fits in with DotF due to plot holes and (current) lack of wider explanation. Oh for an interview or an Ultimania to clarify all this mess.
 

Lord_Ham_Mork

SOLDIER Second Class
Feb 23, 2018
338
574
27
There's a plot element that's not explained in the books but that i think it can tie both stories:

In the world of FFXV there's an afterlife where summons come from and Noctis,Luna, Ardyn and Aera rest after their ending.
The whole problem with the Scourge is about the Gods/Dead/Bahamuth not wanting it to infect the afterlife, so they're whillingly sacrificing part of mankind to erradicate this menace.
Following the original story, the Lucis and Nox Flouret follow the orders of the gods to destroy the Scourge so humanity can live after death.
While in Dawn of the Future, the Lucii and Nox Flouret don't follow orders leaving no other chance to Bahamuth to purge the world so it can get rid of the Scourge and protect his realm.

In other words. In the original story Noctis and Luna sacrifice themself to make sure everyone has an afterlife by protecting the gods realm.
But in Dawn of the Future they have to use the Scourge to destroy the afterlife realm (or conection to it). Granting them a life at the cost of not having anything after death.

This is the only way i can see both stories being canon and having different sacrifices that don't make an ending better than the other.
 

Ikkin

Warrior of Light
Oct 30, 2016
1,019
1,533
Out of all the elements we can say is part of the canon given additional info outside DotF, I think we can make some guesses.

*Since it is technically the divergence point, I think Ardyn's section up to the meeting with Bahamut can be taken as compatible with canon (with the canon choice, as confirmed by developers, to be agreeing with Bahamut's plan).
*Ardyn being tied to the Crystal, and all the lore surrounding it, does fit into what happens during XV's ending as Ikkin said above. If you watch the final CGI cinematic, it is a gigantic explosion that destroys the inside of the throne room after Noctis sacrifices himself. The next immediate scene is a visualisation of Noctis traversing the gate/passage/whatever to the "beyond".
*I think we can take Aranea's section as canon, barring perhaps the bit about Sol, simply due to how fitting it is for her as a character and how it ties up the unresolved fate of Loqi. It also sounds just like Ardyn.
*Noctis's contemplation also seems fitting within the canon. It only diverges based on Luna's actions in her section.

Those bits are what I think would constitute acceptable in canon, while the rest really only fits in with DotF due to plot holes and (current) lack of wider explanation. Oh for an interview or an Ultimania to clarify all this mess.
You know what I'm thinking?

Maybe the original plan for the DLC set was to have canon and non-canon routes, and DotF mixed the two things together haphazardly. Episodes Ardyn and Aranea would be mostly canon and include non-canon elements only at the end (in Ardyn's case, the overt defiance of his fate; in Aranea's case, the choice to adopt Sol instead of, say, finding someone to take her in and protect her), while Episodes Luna and Noct would be mostly non-canon but include canon "Chapter 0"s (in Luna's case, her Oracle training and her feelings in her dying moments; in Noct's case, his contemplation in the Crystal, which would culminate in a choice between the canon "Accept your fate" and a non-canon "Reject your fate" option that leads to the rest of the DLC).

There's a plot element that's not explained in the books but that i think it can tie both stories:

In the world of FFXV there's an afterlife where summons come from.
The whole problem with the Scourge is about the Gods/Dead/Bahamuth not wanting it to infect the afterlife, so they're whillingly sacrificing part of mankind to erradicate this menace.
Following the original story, the Lucis and Nox Flouret follow the orders of the gods to destroy the Scourge so humanity can live after death.
While in Dawn of the Future, the Lucii and Nox Flouret don't follow orders leaving no other chance to Bahamuth to purge the world so it can get rid of the Scourge and protect his realm.

In other words. In the original story Noctis and Luna sacrifice themself to make sure everyone has an afterlife by protecting the gods realm.
But in Dawn of the Future they have to use the Scourge to destroy the afterlife realm (or conection to it). Granting them a life at the cost of not having anything after death.

This is the only way i can see both stories being canon and having different sacrifices that don't make an ending better than the other.
Wow, that would be a terrible tradeoff. XD I wouldn't say one ending wouldn't be better than the other in that case... I'd say the original ending would be far better for everyone in the long run, and the DotF one would be incredibly selfish and short-sighted. =P
 
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Lord_Ham_Mork

SOLDIER Second Class
Feb 23, 2018
338
574
27
You know what I'm thinking?

Maybe the original plan for the DLC set was to have canon and non-canon routes, and DotF mixed the two things together haphazardly. Episodes Ardyn and Aranea would be mostly canon and include non-canon elements only at the end (in Ardyn's case, the overt defiance of his fate; in Aranea's case, the choice to adopt Sol instead of, say, finding someone to take her in and protect her), while Episodes Luna and Noct would be mostly non-canon but include canon "Chapter 0"s (in Luna's case, her Oracle training and her feelings in her dying moments; in Noct's case, his contemplation in the Crystal, which would culminate in a choice between the canon "Accept your fate" and a non-canon "Reject your fate" option that leads to the rest of the DLC).



Wow, that would be a terrible tradeoff. XD I wouldn't say one ending wouldn't be better than the other in that case... I'd say the original ending would be far better for everyone in the long run, and the DotF one would be incredibly selfish and short-sighted. =P
Yeah, but the thing is the decision of what route the protagonist take it doesn't rely on them but in Ardyn.
If Ardyn follow the rules humankind can exist alongside gods/afterlife (original story).
But in DotF Ardyn doens't follow their ordains, so Bahamut has to destroy humanity to save his kind. Which forces Noctis and Luna to defend themself from his attack.
Is not about the trade off but the change of narrative.
One is about accepting your fate to save your loved ones, the other is about overcome god and take control of your destiny.

Both stories end with our heroes saving humanity and having a happy ending. One by having a life and family and the other by resting together forever.
Both are bittersweet and end with the protagonist achieving their goals.

This way neither of the stories are the happy or the sad one and only the theme changes.
You can prefer one or the other. But in both cases Noctis and Luna give their best to save everyone.
 
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Ikkin

Warrior of Light
Oct 30, 2016
1,019
1,533
Yeah, but the thing is the decision of what route the protagonist take it doesn't rely on them but in Ardyn.
If Ardyn follow the rules humankind can exist alongside gods/afterlife (original story).
But in DotF Ardyn doens't follow their ordains, so Bahamut has to destroy humanity to save his kind. Which forces Noctis and Luna to defend themself from his attack.
Is not about the trade off but the change of narrative.
One is about accepting your fate to save your loved ones, the other is about overcome god and take control of your destiny.

Both stories end with our heroes saving humanity and having a happy ending. One by having a life and family and the other by resting together forever.
Both are bittersweet and end with the protagonist achieving their goals.

This way neither of the stories are the happy or the sad one and only the theme changes.
You can prefer one or the other. But in both cases Noctis and Luna give their best to save everyone.
Okay, I get that.

I still think it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to condition the compatibility of humanity and divinity on the obedience of the villain, but I can see how given that starting point, the pros and cons of the two versions would follow.

It's so strange how the original game and DotF have so much potential as AU companion pieces, but the confusion over the canonical status of the elements of each just results in everyone being frustrated at everyone. >_>;
 

Lord_Ham_Mork

SOLDIER Second Class
Feb 23, 2018
338
574
27
Okay, I get that.

I still think it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to condition the compatibility of humanity and divinity on the obedience of the villain, but I can see how given that starting point, the pros and cons of the two versions would follow.

It's so strange how the original game and DotF have so much potential as AU companion pieces, but the confusion over the canonical status of the elements of each just results in everyone being frustrated at everyone. >_>;
Yup.
The main problem i have with DotF is with Bahamuth interests and how they don't match both versions.
By giving him the objective i said instead of him hating humanity I think both stories compliment each other better.
And while playing Episode Ardyn nobody had a clear idea of what route was canon, acceptance or denial (except because the developers said so).
So makes sense to me having Ardyn as the wild card that sets things in motion.
 

Ikkin

Warrior of Light
Oct 30, 2016
1,019
1,533
Yup.
The main problem i have with DotF is with Bahamuth interests and how they don't match both versions.
By giving him the objective i said instead of him hating humanity I think both stories compliment each other better.
And while playing Episode Ardyn nobody had a clear idea of what route was canon, acceptance or denial (except because the developers said so).
So makes sense to me having Ardyn as the wild card that sets things in motion.
Yeah... by having Bahamut motivated by the defense of his kind, regardless of the cost to humanity, you'd end up with a much more morally ambiguous conflict. "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" or whatnot. Bahamut wants what's best for the Astrals and the world as a whole, but Noct and Luna obviously want to protect humanity, and Ardyn's choice rendered those two outcomes mutually exclusive. Meanwhile in the canon, the obedience of the human characters to their fates, no matter how unpleasant, allows for a mutually beneficial outcome for humanity and Astrals alike.
 

motoleo

ShinRa SOLDIER
Jan 7, 2019
160
192
I have to wait for the entire book because i’m pretty sure my opinion about it is going to differ from most people. If Noctis manages to defeat the gods my first thought is, and then they come back right? We’ve been shown repeatedly the gods cannot be killed. If Bahamut wants to wipe out humanity that’s what it will be. Obviously they made the gods so angry and they would say, it’s enough of this.
 
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Ikkin

Warrior of Light
Oct 30, 2016
1,019
1,533
I have to wait for the entire book because i’m pretty sure my opinion about it is going to differ from most people. If Noctis manages to defeat the gods my first thought is, and then they come back right? We’ve been shown repeatedly the gods cannot be killed. If Bahamut wants to wipe out humanity that’s what it will be. Obviously they made the gods so angry and they would say, it’s enough of this.
Based on the summaries, it sounds like DotF invented a way to get around that problem by having the simultaneous death of Bahamut's physical form and his soul in the Beyond resulting in the erasure of all Astrals. Why would that happen? *shrugs*
 
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