Final Fantasy XV - General News Thread

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Diari

Stiltzkin's Apprentice
Feb 24, 2018
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Maybe, Bahamut was evil all along and lead Noctis to kill Stella, because she was a key player in destroying Bahamut.
But Etro caused Stella to be able to communicate with Noct, and Bahamut didn't like this.

Now I see why Nomura wrote ''there is no good or evil, only thinking makes it so''
Because if Bahamut is wrong here, then Ravus attempt to do magics at the crystal isn't bad. The crystal everyone thought was good, was actually the source of all evils.
On the other side, if it weren't for Bahamut's powers, the lucis kingdom would be powerless to defend themselves from enemy attacks.

And killing bahamut causes dawn to return to Insomnia with the waking of Etro. And the 5 other astrals were turned into c'ieth by bahamut?
 
Feb 19, 2018
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I think my least favorite aspect about DoTF is how it basically throws the brotherhood aspect out the window. The bros get shafted in terms of their screen time and role in the final battle from the looks of it and I'm just not a big fan of that. So much of XV is centered around the idea of brotherhood and I think it helps FFXV standout amongst, not only other FFs, but other games in general because I've never seen any other game go to such great lengths to build such a fleshed out, organic, and endearing friendship between a couple of buddies. It's part of why FFXV's original finale also hits so hard imo. The bros are finally at their peak and are the most in tune with each other they've ever been. These aren't just your friends anymore, but your brothers you're fighting with which makes the inevitability of Noct's death even sadder. The moments where you and your bros are finally at your strongest are also your last ones with them making you cherish those final moments even more.

Noctis, Ardyn, Luna, and Aranea sounds like a dope party roster but it also doesn't hold the same weight seeing these 4 fight together as when you see the bros working together to take down Ifrit or when you see each bro mustering the strength to defeat a past king of Lucis because of their unwavering love for Noctis. All of this is after spending a good amount of time away from them too which makes the reunion and subsequent bro moments even better. It all just... clicks.

So yeah while there are issues of Bahamut's motives not lining up or certain rules of the lore being uprooted and/or retconned I think the handling of the bros is the biggest offense by far as it betrays the main overarching theme and spirit of the whole adventure which is brotherhood. At least from what I've seen thus far.
 

Ikkin

Warrior of Light
Oct 30, 2016
1,099
1,704
Maybe, Bahamut was evil all along and lead Noctis to kill Stella, because she was a key player in destroying Bahamut.
But Etro caused Stella to be able to communicate with Noct, and Bahamut didn't like this.

Now I see why Nomura wrote ''there is no good or evil, only thinking makes it so''
Because if Bahamut is wrong here, then Ravus attempt to do magics at the crystal isn't bad. The crystal everyone thought was good, was actually the source of all evils. And killing bahamut causes dawn to return to Insomnia with the waking of Etro. And the 5 other astrals were turned into c'ieth by bahamut?
Possibly something of the sort... though Bahamut would have definitely been Bhunivelze in Versus.
 
Likes: Diari

Diari

Stiltzkin's Apprentice
Feb 24, 2018
10
8
28
Possibly something of the sort... though Bahamut would have definitely been Bhunivelze in Versus.
And it also makes sense that Noctis collects 13 weapons because bahamut himself also master summoner of weapons. I imagine the semi final battle to be a fight in the sky lol like jumping on swords bahamut throws at you up to the moon, then using stopga to slow down his weapons, summoning your shuriken star, warp to it, stab bahamut in the face.
 

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SonOfEtro

Warrior of Light
May 2, 2016
1,024
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Problems or no problems, I still feel like purchasing the book when/if it comes out in English.

Edit: Okay, I just had a really crazy idea.

If SQEX does a sequel to this game, they may not just follow the main continuity and contrive a new post-Scourge threat, but create a story where there are multiple alternate paths coexisting and perhaps crossing over to cause unexpected complications; each would have new problems born from the paths they chose.

That division could allow the contradictory elements of narrative to all be valid to a degree, would continue to allow the main canon of XV to be the true canon, and would be an amusingly meta narrative if these different timelines clashed with each other over which was the right course to take (like fans have done since AltIgnis). Just imaging DotF Luna and IgnisAlt Ravus arguing with XV Gladio about which future was better is hilarious. Oh, and each versions' interactions with the world's deities would be dramatic and comedy gold; the main Bahamut getting confronted by a Noctis who sees him as an enemy sounds interesting.

Main character would be someone who could at least sense and perhaps cross between the different histories. For newcomers, there would be a deal of probably documents rather than exposition surrounding how each world reached that point. And there doesn't have to be any new deities added to make this confusing.

As I said, a really crazy idea. Appealing more as a meta narrative on the XV fandom than a practical suggestion.

EditB; Also it's mercilessly ripping off Chrono Cross.
 
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Apr 23, 2018
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I just occurred to me; I wonder if/when we'll be getting an XV Ultimania Omega now the saga of XV is well and truly finished. Omega's always hold some of the juiciest titbits from a development and lore perspective.
I just want a super sized making of/artbook, but given the troubled development cycle Versus/XV had I doubt we'd get anything too in-depth. I'm sure there's a ton of concept art and designs for stuff they didn't use in the game though, I'd love to see that just like with what they did for DotF and that little art book that comes with the novel.

I'm a big fan of things like that, seeing all the artist comments and the work that goes into everything behind the scenes. It sucks that we never really got a proper Kingdom Hearts art book either after all these years too. It's a shame Square Enix are so stingy with their concept art. But an Ultimania Omega would be something, if it was even released in the west.

DZPvlJ2VQAAsv_c.jpg
 
May 15, 2018
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Apologies in advance, but this is quite long and perhaps somewhat rambling.

I think people are missing what the Astrals are; a race unto themselves, individuals with strange motives. As to Bahamut, now I've read more of the summaries, it's plain to me that there's a black-and-white logic to Bahamut's vision. Let's look at each of the Astrals and the Crystal;

Titan; Generally friendly, defended Eos and humans in canon.
Ramuh; A somewhat neutral overseer, still defended Eos.
Leviathan; tempestuous, but ready to defend her realm if she came under threat, from either humans or Astrals.
Ifrit; Placed too much faith in humans and didn't take rejection well, basically wanted to wipe the slate clean and start again.
Shiva; An impassive figure until warmed by Ifrit's compassion, then had to fight him when he was pushed too far, and was won over to humanity's cause again by Lunafreya's compassion.
Bahamut; An impassive overseer and guide to all of Eos, both gods and humans.
The Crystal; a near-inanimate seed of power, possibly even the source of life on Eos, given that DotF's lore there is consistant with descriptions of the Crystal from the main game's lore.

For all there's a bit of rushing over details which hurts the overall narrative, DotF doesn't contradict the Astrals' attitudes outright, only takes it to a logical extreme based on the actions of humanity. From what I see, Bahamut wanted the world to be ideal, in his own way. But first humanity negatively influenced Ifrit so he took it personally when they turned against him and the others, then the war between Ifrit and humanity turned into a war between the gods. If you were the highest god and saw your fellows and creations in your image squabbling, you might unleash your fury. The other Astrals stop him, which gives Bahamut time to calm.

As to the Starscourge, I'm disappointed there's been nothing more concrete about its emergence, but that appears to be the general fault with the entire XV narrative, canon or otherwise. Anyway, Bahamut has a chance to cool down, and sees humans rebuilding after Solheim's fall. As the Scourge (which is portrayed as an outside or alien threat to Eos's ecosystem) threatens everything and everyone on Eos, Bahamut decides to put a plan into motion, using humans as his medium to purge Eos of its scourge. Concentrate the Scourge into an embodiment, then use another chosen person to gather enough magical energy that a single flash will annihilate the Scourge. Ardyn's being immortal doesn't seem to have been in the original plan, so Bahamut adjusted as everything else was fitting in nicely, and he found a means to manipulate Ardyn into following his revised plan. If they follow his plan, they've proven their worth and redeemed themselves in his eyes, and he's quite happy to let them rebuild.

Only then...Ardyn doesn't fulfil his role, and instead builds his power to the point where even the Ring replete with the light of Providence can't stop him or the Scourge. Humanity's going down the same path again; rejecting the gods again. The world tips that little bit beyond what Bahamut is willing to save. If you were a god who saw the world falling into ruin twice over because of the same problematic species, wouldn't you want to wipe the slate clean and start again? Biblical stories, the myths of Classical Europe and Asia, even the Americas all have that theme. When humans fall or insult their gods, they receive retribution. In Bahamut's case, that's a reboot. The book explicitly states that the Crystal gave life to Eos, and I think that's legit lore that applies to the greater canon. What's to stop Bahamut from using the Crystal again to rejuvenate the planet after his purge?

It's not that he always intended to level Eos, or that he changed his mind over nothing. He originally saw the world tipping towards ruin, and took a hasty action. Then he had time to reconsider when the other Astrals pushed against him, and when the Scourge appeared, he decided to give Eos another chance. But the path to salvation he'd set out was thrown back in his face. It was like Solheim all over again. Humans were made in the Astrals' image; that may also extend to their personalities, only with the Astrals it's on a far more grandiose scale. The other Astrals are bound by the absolute rule; defend Eos. Even Ifrit's won back to that when he realises just how far Bahamut's planning to go from Luna during the final chapter. He acts against Bahamut to save himself and Eos, not humanity. And since it's likely he was still killed by Bahamut during the Great War of Old, this would be sweet revenge for him. Ifrit's rather like the Ardyn of the Astrals; he's driven by selfish motives to do selfless acts.

Yes, DotF isn't perfect by a long chalk. There's gaps, there's rushed segments, and trying to tell this story in book form can come off as weird, and without the gameplay tells it's difficult to tell what's part of the larger canon and what's being brought up for this particular line of history. But they didn't create completely original characters for the novel alone, they were extrapolating on already-existing traits each Astral had. Basically....Bahamut's didn't fully understand the concept of the best laid plans going wrong, because there was no middle ground in his mind. It seems there are some aspects of the world even he doesn't understand. And that's a lot like the more Classical interpretation of deities, which I think is what XV was aiming for.

Edit: This is gonna be one of those topics, I think. I struggle to think what if any other game managed to generate this must debate over a few details.
*applauds*
 
May 15, 2018
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You know I was going to purchase the book but now that I basically know what happens you know what, I won't even buy it. Since we have to wait and everything. Don't even matter. Ha
I think SE really drops the ball every time they opt out of simultaneous international release, knowing how many non-japanese fans they have...
 
May 15, 2018
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I still don't think Bahamut's characterization in DotF is consistent with canon.

For one thing, future sight is clearly a thing that exists in canon, so Bahamut shouldn't be caught off-guard. The painting of the prophecy included Ignis' blindness, which absolutely was not a necessary condition for the prophecy's fulfillment (...and which happens as a result of Ardyn defying the calling Bahamut gave him and deciding that he'd rather just eliminate Noct then and there).

For another, canon Bahamut always seemed cold and calculating, not tempestuous and impulsive. Getting angry enough to try to annihilate everything, then cooling down and deciding that's not a good idea clearly falls into the latter category rather than the former. And, sure, that fits with Classical mythology, but that just goes to show that FFXV's Astrals were going for something a little more nuanced than Classical mythology.

FFXV's Astrals are conscious embodiments of impersonal forces of nature rather than forces of nature misunderstood as inherently personal. That DotF implies otherwise is a problem with DotF, not an expansion of FFXV's characterization.
I`m sorry, but this is pandering to a theory you yourself made (which I love btw, but maybe it`s possible to retain it without rejecting the DotF?)

About the "unavoidable fate" in FFXV and how you think it doesn`t make sence for Bahamut to not know the future.
It can be seen that in the world of Eos, some events seem to be unavoidable. There`s many examples for that in both vanilla FF and the DLCs - crystal choosing the king, the king making a sacrifice, and more literal examples in the game - aera being killed, ignis going blind etc.

The thing is, nothing says explicitly how and when the events have to come in fruition. The "king of light blessed by the oracle" painting you were referencing is symbolic. We never saw Noctis sitting on a cloud wearing a black robe holding a sword like that. It was to symbolize he was blessed by the heavens.
You could look the same way at the alternative scenario happening in episode Ignis. We know that he had to "go blind". And turns out he did in both cases.
In first scenario he went blind literally. Now in the second one, he did it allegorically - he made a leap of faith. He didn`t know what was to happen if he played along. But he did it anyway - so you could say, he agreed to be blinded and went forth lead by his faith.

I think the second dissonance you find might come from the fact, that you assume, that the original FFXV Bahamut was omnipotent - but he wasn`t. If he was, he would have gotten rid of the scourge himself, without sacrificing lives of innocent beings (be in humans or astrals)
 
May 15, 2018
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Possibly something of the sort... though Bahamut would have definitely been Bhunivelze in Versus.
I feel that original versus actually had a tragic ending. It was leaked somewhere, that he was sitting on the throne alone and was the king, but there was no kingdom to rule. So he killed the enemys and killed the gods, but ultimately this turned out to be the wrong decision.
 
Likes: Dorothy95

SonOfEtro

Warrior of Light
May 2, 2016
1,024
1,177
I feel that original versus actually had a tragic ending. It was leaked somewhere, that he was sitting on the throne alone and was the king, but there was no kingdom to rule. So he killed the enemys and killed the gods, but ultimately this turned out to be the wrong decision.
Those "leaks" weren't ever substantiated. It was mostly related to 2Chan and 4Chan stuff, not anything from the developers themselves. All we know for sure about the Versus XIII storyline prior to rebranding is;

*It was a "reality based on fantasy", with extraordinary happenings emerging from everyday life. Its connections to the wider FNC mythos were going to be low-key, not using the terminology and focusing on the human side of the struggle.
*The main themes were "misery" and "bonds", with Nomura wanting the characters not to be drawn together by a grand destiny. Nojima described the story in an interview as "Myth vs. Reality". It would've been the saddest FF story to date at that time.
*One thing we know changed because Nomura said so was Stella's role; she went from being some kind of unwilling antagonist circa 2008 to the main heroine/supporting character circa 2011.
*We know from character designer Roberto Ferrari that the narrative was being changed with monotonous regularity during its Versus era.

And that's really all we do know for certain. We can get a glimpse of how much changed from comments made by Noctis's Japanese voice actor. He apparently changed from an isolated and sometimes rude introvert into someone more likeable if still shy. I think Tabata was right when he said that Versus was little more than an idea that never took shape.
 
Likes: Storm

Ikkin

Warrior of Light
Oct 30, 2016
1,099
1,704
I think my least favorite aspect about DoTF is how it basically throws the brotherhood aspect out the window. The bros get shafted in terms of their screen time and role in the final battle from the looks of it and I'm just not a big fan of that. So much of XV is centered around the idea of brotherhood and I think it helps FFXV standout amongst, not only other FFs, but other games in general because I've never seen any other game go to such great lengths to build such a fleshed out, organic, and endearing friendship between a couple of buddies. It's part of why FFXV's original finale also hits so hard imo. The bros are finally at their peak and are the most in tune with each other they've ever been. These aren't just your friends anymore, but your brothers you're fighting with which makes the inevitability of Noct's death even sadder. The moments where you and your bros are finally at your strongest are also your last ones with them making you cherish those final moments even more.

Noctis, Ardyn, Luna, and Aranea sounds like a dope party roster but it also doesn't hold the same weight seeing these 4 fight together as when you see the bros working together to take down Ifrit or when you see each bro mustering the strength to defeat a past king of Lucis because of their unwavering love for Noctis. All of this is after spending a good amount of time away from them too which makes the reunion and subsequent bro moments even better. It all just... clicks.

So yeah while there are issues of Bahamut's motives not lining up or certain rules of the lore being uprooted and/or retconned I think the handling of the bros is the biggest offense by far as it betrays the main overarching theme and spirit of the whole adventure which is brotherhood. At least from what I've seen thus far.
I don't like it either, and I honestly can't imagine what sort of logic went into such a counterproductive choice. Like, I can at least understand that changing Bahamut's character makes it easier to design an exciting alternate climax... but decentralizing the bros accomplishes nothing but upsetting the people who loved the game because of their relationship with Noct (and thus the player).

Problems or no problems, I still feel like purchasing the book when/if it comes out in English.

Edit: Okay, I just had a really crazy idea.

If SQEX does a sequel to this game, they may not just follow the main continuity and contrive a new post-Scourge threat, but create a story where there are multiple alternate paths coexisting and perhaps crossing over to cause unexpected complications; each would have new problems born from the paths they chose.

That division could allow the contradictory elements of narrative to all be valid to a degree, would continue to allow the main canon of XV to be the true canon, and would be an amusingly meta narrative if these different timelines clashed with each other over which was the right course to take (like fans have done since AltIgnis). Just imaging DotF Luna and IgnisAlt Ravus arguing with XV Gladio about which future was better is hilarious. Oh, and each versions' interactions with the world's deities would be dramatic and comedy gold; the main Bahamut getting confronted by a Noctis who sees him as an enemy sounds interesting.

Main character would be someone who could at least sense and perhaps cross between the different histories. For newcomers, there would be a deal of probably documents rather than exposition surrounding how each world reached that point. And there doesn't have to be any new deities added to make this confusing.

As I said, a really crazy idea. Appealing more as a meta narrative on the XV fandom than a practical suggestion.

EditB; Also it's mercilessly ripping off Chrono Cross.
As long as each of the timelines was set back the way it ought to be in the end, that could actually be quite a bit of fun. XD (As long as it doesn't unceremoniously kill off beloved characters the way Chrono Cross did...)

I just occurred to me; I wonder if/when we'll be getting an XV Ultimania Omega now the saga of XV is well and truly finished. Omega's always hold some of the juiciest titbits from a development and lore perspective.
Hopefully! Though I have to wonder who would act as the keeper of the lore now that Tabata is gone... I feel like Terada might take the opportunity to pull elements of DotF's lore that don't work well with canon back into the canon continuity. =/

What I really want is a proper timeline of what went down during the game's development, with as many pieces of concept art from as many stages of development as possible. That'd be a lot more appealing than lore additions from someone who's already shown a disregard for the game's lore.

I`m sorry, but this is pandering to a theory you yourself made (which I love btw, but maybe it`s possible to retain it without rejecting the DotF?)
My video about the Astrals isn't so much a theory as the interpretation of canon I find most coherent, so criticism of things that contradict it isn't so much "pandering to a theory" as it is a means by which to demonstrate incoherency.

About the "unavoidable fate" in FFXV and how you think it doesn`t make sence for Bahamut to not know the future.
It can be seen that in the world of Eos, some events seem to be unavoidable. There`s many examples for that in both vanilla FF and the DLCs - crystal choosing the king, the king making a sacrifice, and more literal examples in the game - aera being killed, ignis going blind etc.

The thing is, nothing says explicitly how and when the events have to come in fruition. The "king of light blessed by the oracle" painting you were referencing is symbolic. We never saw Noctis sitting on a cloud wearing a black robe holding a sword like that. It was to symbolize he was blessed by the heavens.
You could look the same way at the alternative scenario happening in episode Ignis. We know that he had to "go blind". And turns out he did in both cases.
In first scenario he went blind literally. Now in the second one, he did it allegorically - he made a leap of faith. He didn`t know what was to happen if he played along. But he did it anyway - so you could say, he agreed to be blinded and went forth lead by his faith.
The problem of Ignis' blindness in the painting isn't just a matter of game canon vs. Ep. Ignis Verse 2, though. It's a matter of Ignis' blindness not being a necessary element of the prophecy. There are an effectively infinite number of logically-coherent sequences of events that would result in the prophecy being fulfilled without any of Noct's friends losing their sight, literally or symbolically. Bahamut clearly didn't interfere in the events to ensure that Ignis went blind, either. As such, there's one very obvious instance of superfluous detail in the painting of the prophecy... and superfluous prophetic details that are correct tend to suggest that the prophecy in question is based in an actual knowledge of the future rather than a mere desire to bring about such a future.

(For what it's worth, the fact that the painting shows a party of four is itself a superfluous detail, albeit one that would be easier to chalk up to coincidence if left by itself.)

And it's strange to suggest that some events are fixed points while others aren't when DotF and Ep. Ignis Verse 2 change the things that would be most likely to become a fixed point if such a concept made any sense (namely, the successful fulfillment of the prophecy). It makes a lot more sense to assume that no events are more metaphysically necessary than any other, but Day One/Royal Edition FFXV featured a world in which it is possible to make definite factual statements about things which will happen in the future (with the best example being the prophecy itself).

I think the second dissonance you find might come from the fact, that you assume, that the original FFXV Bahamut was omnipotent - but he wasn`t. If he was, he would have gotten rid of the scourge himself, without sacrificing lives of innocent beings (be in humans or astrals)
Nah, I never assumed that. It's always been crystal clear that Bahamut is less powerful than Noct with the power of Providence.

I feel that original versus actually had a tragic ending. It was leaked somewhere, that he was sitting on the throne alone and was the king, but there was no kingdom to rule. So he killed the enemys and killed the gods, but ultimately this turned out to be the wrong decision.
I do get the impression that the original Versus had a tragic ending, but there aren't any leaks that offer any insight into what such an ending might have looked like.

I also suspect that Nomura XV probably didn't have the same degree of tragic ending anymore by the time Tabata took over, mostly based on one of the pieces of concept art shown in Dawn of the Future:



The girl Noct is with in this picture is holding a rapier, not a spear, so it's likely that she's Stella rather than Luna. The concept art is used to depict the funeral of Ardyn, however, which makes me wonder whether this might have been taken from concept art of the ending of Nomura XV.

(Ardyn being sympathetic and redeeming himself at the end seems like a very Nomura thing to do, especially since he shares a Japanese voice actor with Axel and Reno. It'd also make good -- if clearly unplanned -- use of the "There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so" line from the first trailer, which is also a very Nomura thing to do.)
 

SonOfEtro

Warrior of Light
May 2, 2016
1,024
1,177
As long as each of the timelines was set back the way it ought to be in the end, that could actually be quite a bit of fun. XD (As long as it doesn't unceremoniously kill off beloved characters the way Chrono Cross did...)
On principle, agree. And yes, Chrono Cross was a little free with character deaths, and I'm still muddled about how they managed all that inter-world stuff without the plot completely caving in on itself. If any XV-2 went that route, they would need to use the engine and gameplay they had, and dedicated a lot of time to narrative and characters. Like a year, with a sealed room, and concrete world rules they didn't change halfway through development.

Thinking about how SQEX has handled parallel realities before now, they'd probably have maybe one or two characters from alternate paths ending up back in the main timeline, which at worst is preserved though some kind of magical MacGuffin or mystical A-Bomb. Not Noctis or Luna or anyone key to the original game's ending and its buildup (so no characters from Kingsglaive getting resurrected for no reason, which would be extremely cheap and ruin the impact of this hypothetical sequel), but someone less central to the overall plot or how it played out. Maybe Ravus being carried over from AltIgnis timeline; there's potential for him to have survived the main events if it weren't for Ardyn's interference. Maybe Luna from DotF timeline insisting that he remain and live, and probably there being some parlaying with the Astrals over these points during the lead-up to the finale. Memories would certainly be preserved to a degree.

But that's just wild speculation based on how SQEX handled those kinds of plot lines before. They'll probably never do an XV sequel.

Edit: Oh, exceptionally dramatic idea for each world's problems. In the DotF world, there would be unforeseen issues like uncontrolled natural disasters due to the end of magic. In AltIgnis world, there could be continued Scourge or something similar created by Ignis's alternative. And the main canon would have problems with xenophobic propaganda and assaults against survivors from Niflheim or their sympathetic holdings post-Long Night.
 
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motoleo

Chocobo Knight
Jan 7, 2019
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Luna got her Kingsglaive outfit back out for Ardyn's funeral. Ugh. Why even give Ardyn a funeral? Even if he did destroy Bahamut, he doesn't deserve one!
 

SonOfEtro

Warrior of Light
May 2, 2016
1,024
1,177
Really now? Sources about that?
Ah, found it. And I misremembered what it was. To quote:
I did not get the full box with the concept art, but from what I hear the concept art included several ideas that didn’t make it into the story. This includes:
-Any actual description of the wedding (as of the end of the book, the wedding is clearly planned, but it isn’t shown)
-Lunoct children
-Ardyn’s “funeral”
Essentially the actual story ends with the battle against Bahamut, though there is a bit of an epilogue about the Dawn and people rebuilding, and a message from Regis similar to the speech he gives during the “wedding” scene in the original ending.
(Come to think of it, we STILL don’t get any of Luna and Noctis simply talking with each other after she’s reverted from her daemon form…)
 
Apr 23, 2018
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Ah, found it. And I misremembered what it was. To quote:
So Noctis and Luna still barely interact in the novel? Damn, I'd hope they'd rectify that and let them spend some downtime with each other, Luna gets to be casual with Sol but not Noctis? I guess had the DLC actually been made they would've had dialogue with each other as party members, shame. I hope they get at least one scene of genuine interaction in DotF, between all the action.