The truth about FFXVersus XIII

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Jubileus

Warrior of Light
Oct 7, 2016
1,618
1,295
#21
That's not how corporate cultures work. The Nomura vs Tabata debate is just the toxic fanbase projecting their own feelings onto the creators.
As someone who used to be in the corporate culture, that is exactly what it's like.

Wearing nice suits and looking professional doesn't hide the ugliness of human nature when it comes to climbing the ladder, wanting to stand out, wanting to do things your way, etc.

It's subtle, but it's there. You can sense the dislike, passive aggression, and disdain in these kinds of environments. It's not in your face (well.. sometimes it is but not usually).

I think there was a rift between the two teams.

Tabata did say that he came in, shook up the development teams by changing the hierarchy, and some people resented him for it in an interview (I think it was with Eurogamer).

People don't respond well to change, especially if it was unwelcome, got them demoted, shifted to an undesirable department, or changed their creative direction.
 

Nova

Warrior of Light
Jul 14, 2015
1,511
2,018
#26
An amusing read i have to say, at the very least compared to other various "leaks" spread around the game.

But unfortunately there are three large points that keep me from entirely eliminating my skeptism, such as:

the company are trying to hide that and the official concepts for FFXV 2013 you saw last year were premeditely calculated to fool people to think that there were barely any difference with Tabatas vision.
For starters given how Tabata repeatedly stated that Versus XIII & XV aren't the same game outside of core thematics and such, as well as especially publically revealing cuts in 2015/onwards (and technically 2014) from Versus such as Stella, Insomnia Invasion, Cor initially being a permanent party member, etc....it would make absolutely no sense for Square to keep up with what you're stating at this point.

Especially with what Ferrari said about the story changing every three months in 2013 already.

Tabata wanted to simplify the story to its limits.
Nomura himself already stated in 2013 that FFXV would have a simple plot, while the FNC terminalogy was definitely toned down for a wider audience (despite the mythos technically still existing), i find it hard to believe the simplicity was 100% soley Tabata's decision.

but what you dont know is the HATE Nomuras team have because they DO NOTunderstand why they first wasted so, much resources in making the film,BUT why they did not put Noctis as the main character instead ofcreating Nyx to replace him.
It has already been reported that the reason for KG's existence was entirely due to:

A: BD2 not wanting to impractically force the Invasion into the main game.

B: The event itself requiring them to go way past their strict deadline in order to make it playable.

And before i get yanked on for these answers above, i just want to say that i myself certainly would have preferred a playable Invasion. Because personally speaking, 2015 announcement of its removal soured me FAR HARDER than Stella ever could, but thanks to schedule conflicts and whatnot, shit happens, and i learned to just accept reality the way it was.

So overall in regards to this point, considering the one of the three sources citing Versus XIII's cancellation claimed that the core foundation of Versus XIII was a product no one in the internal team (a.k.a. the Nomura team) were happy with already pre-reboot, the claim that Nomura's team found KG to be a "waste of time to make" despite it being the only way they could have feasibly gotten the event out while keeling FFXV on it's 2016 deadline + focusing on telling the core story in one game (which was not only a team decision, but a company one as well) doesn't exactly sit well with me.

Also this one is an extra but i'll just say:
when I hear from SE saying that Versus XIII/FFXV Nomura was something that never finished or Tabata saying it was just an unfinished concept something inside of me is burning.
Thats because objectively speaking IT WAS unfinished, 25% at that. And even then it was constantly changing, the troubled project was on the verge of cancellation which led to it being nothing but concept footage instead of a playable game that became FFXV instead.

Ferrari himself already stated that not only the script he was given for Versus XIII at the time was different than the initial one he had, but also said that the story was not defined and kept changing every three months in 2013, and that was happening before he left at the end of 2013. Even if its hard to come to terms with, Versus XIII itself was in fact just an incomplete concept met with unforunate circumstances in the end.

So all in all, while a fun read, i currently remain skeptical and will have to take this stuff from your source with a gain of salt.
 
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Ikkin

SeeD A-Class
Oct 30, 2016
698
806
#27
Interesting. Apart from the never-ending Nomura-vs.-Tabata soap opera, this leak almost seems too good to be true. XD


First, the versus you always dreamed (me included) was just our perception of that teasers and concepts they were releasing. The reality is that the versus XIII you wanted is what you get BUT what they compiled in one game, then they had to cut so much things to reestructure everything to get it in one game. The main core and tone for the story was ALWAYS THE SAME. Blame that teasers for what we created, the game was always meant to be a journey with his friends for recovering the crystal. The nights getting longer, the darkness itself, daemons and experiments WERE ALWAYS THE CORE OF THE STORY IN VERSUS XIII.
This is definitely the impression I got and the argument I've been making since FFXV came out.

Parts of this can, of course, be drawn from the parts of the old promotional materials that went overlooked in favor of the flashier elements. The concept of a road movie-style journey with friends to recover the Crystal was first discussed by Nomura a decade ago.

Other elements were never discussed outright, but they practically scream "Nomura." The combination of a dark force of nature and scientific experimentation into an apocalyptic threat is practically Nomura's signature move. The lengthening nights could go either way, but it's entirely plausible that Nomura would go for that.


Please FORGET about that FF Versus XV or wathever, ITS TOTALLY FAKE.
I've felt this way since the first time I ever heard the name "Final Fantasy Versus XV." XD;


1. Etro was changed not by Tabatas team, that was a company decision because since it was a numbered title they did not want to preserve an entity (she barely appeared in the story until the very end) that was related to the death and the sacrifice of people. The ring was originally from Etro.
Thats why they created the old kings to substitute her, or I should say "created" since they did existing but had other role, they simply assumed the Etros role because of the company.
While it's entirely believable that Etro was originally intended to be the source of the ring, it seems rather odd that Squenix would have taken exception to the idea of a deity linked to death and human sacrifice when FFXV is still all about death and human sacrifice, and the Lucii in their present form are entities whose roles revolve around death and human sacrifice.

...not that Squenix is a stranger to bizarre means of ensuring their desired rating (*glares in the general direction of KHII*), but still. =P


2. Stella, she was just the plot device for Noctis and other character (that will upset you) to fulfill their destiny. She dies early in the story and like Luna THEY NEVER EVER seeing again each other after the party. Luna in fact respected LOT OF STELLA, MORE THAN YOU THINK. The thing is when she dies, I was not told how, is when it comes into the story the next change or in this case OMISSION.
Well, this would certainly explain some of the things Tabata said about the Stella-Luna shift. If the character was doomed to die in order to passively influence Noct anyway, giving her more agency in her fate would have been an obvious improvement.


3. The world of dreams. Thats a part of the narrative where Noctis could talk with certain characters such as Regis and Stella through his dreams, the point of that was Noctis to question himself about what was real or a dream while they were supporting him. He was able to talk dead people while he was sleeping and Stella was a constant until the end. Was he dreaming all the time? What is really real? That was part of the versus magic that got lost and was SO important for Nomura. Tabata wanted to simplify the story to its limits.
Remove almost completely because they considering it so convoluting and non sense since they wanted a non complicated linear story.
Hah, it's hard to think of anything more Nomura than that. He's been toying with the idea of blurring the line between dreams and reality in Kingdom Hearts since that series began, so it wouldn't be surprising in the slightest if he wanted to draw that concept out further in Versus.

And, interestingly, FFXV as it exists does offer some hints as to where the concept of the world of dreams might have remained, most notably in the Platinum Demo (which is connected to Noct's near-death experience), in Luna's death scene, and, weirdly enough, in the Moogle-Chocobo Carnival.


4. LUPUS NOX FLEURET. (What a casuality no one of the fake leakers named him...) he was originally the Stella's brother and he was THE OTHER CHOSEN ONE. But due to this reestructure, I personally hate what they did but at the same time I understand, he had to be severely downgraded and they fused part of him with other member of the Empire. Then Ravus was born.
One of the plot twist that the game would have is that supposedly all the crystals were dead but in the last act you get to know Lupus had been used the ring to get the (his) crystals power before it got dead. And yes, Ardyn fucked every single crystal, and yes, in the final battle Noctis and Lupus fight together against Ardyn using their rings.
Nomuras team are so upset by that decission particularly, Lupus is/was one of the favourite Nomuras character. Ravus is everything Lupus was based on character, design, personality, goals and all except he is not a chosen one and he was treated like shit.
* I suppose there was at least two more chosen but I was not told about them and I just want to say what is 1000% official.
That... name. It's probably the least believable part of this whole leak, because Ravus sounds so much more consistent with the other known Versus names.

The idea that Stella's brother had another ring and ended up being redeemed just in time to fight the final boss is entirely plausible given Nomura's favored tropes, though.


5. Ardyn. A character that was respected was Ardyn at least a great porcentage, he was not only Lucis Caelum but Fleuret too. Because of the obvious reestructure of Tabatas FFXV with just one chosen they had to make what they did. He was the first chosen and he just wanted to kill every single crystal.
I'm guessing that Ardyn being both Lucis Caelum and Fleuret was meant to explain his Oracle-like Starscourge-removing powers?


6. The gods. Originally summons like Leviathan, Titan or simply the ones you see in FFXV NONE OF THEM were gods, the real gods were the ones inside the crystals. What you see in FFXV were just force of nature if you want, the Empire was obssesed with their power and they were trying to chasing to get its powers. Again, because of the reestructure they had to make them gods I suposse to give them a real importance and a coherence for the story.
This makes sense given my understanding of the revealed lore of Versus. I think I like FFXV's way of handling summons and deities better than this alternative, though.


7. Travels in time. That was just other thing they ommited but at the same time hinted, a part of the story in versus XIII was travelling in time to try to change events that happens, that was possible because of Umbra. It was an important part, the point of that was Noctis not accepting all the tragedies he was living but at the end he realises that what destiny wants to happen it will no matter what you try to change.
Again due to the reestructure, versus had certain things that were aso little bit convoluted like the world of dreams and that time travels, Tabata did not like anything of that as he wanted a direct no complicated story.
I guess the weird time-travel-esque thing that Umbra had going on in FFXV was left over from a more story-critical incarnation of Umbra-based time travel, then? That would make a certain amount of sense.


8. Kingsglaive. And when I name Kingsglaive I refer not just the royal glaives but the film itself. Some of you may know that the royal glaives was an idea from Tabata, but what you dont know is the HATE Nomuras team have because they DO NOT understand why they first wasted so, much resources in making the film, BUT why they did not put Noctis as the main character instead of creating Nyx to replace him. They did not understand several decisions they made when they were making FFXV.
I thought the logic behind the separation between FFXV and Kingsglaive was pretty clear, even if it's not particularly difficult to argue that the separation might not have been worth what it accomplished.


In the company the Nomuras team can not see Tabatas and viceversa, the company are trying to hide that and the official concepts for FFXV 2013 you saw last year were premeditely calculated to fool people to think that there were barely any difference with Tabatas vision.
Honestly, if what you're saying is true, I kind of feel like people tended to assume that Nomura and Tabata's visions were further apart than they actually were, not closer. *shrugs*
 

Alekzan

ShinRa SOLDIER
Jan 7, 2017
167
138
#29
Well, that's a big wall of SALT i would say, and they way how you handled it all...Well my congratulations, you know how to make a show.
I'll put my opinion in more simple way and maybe harsh, but it will be similiar to Nova, Jubelieus and kinda Ikkin opinion.
I'll just quote those parts which looks like totally ******, because what left was 1000000 times told here, even before i registred here.
1.
In the company the Nomuras team can not see Tabatas and viceversa, the company are trying to hide that and the official concepts for FFXV 2013 you saw last year were premeditely calculated to fool people to think that there were barely any difference with Tabatas vision.
I can believe that both teams would hate each other, having own grudge against each other. And it's kinda funny from neutral position, if you think about a bit longer. Why in earth, Nomura must\should hate Tabata' team, if they aren't those who to blaim. Those who they must blame and hate are this two suspicions: SE management and themselves. But reality is cruel: 1.we cant openly blame management, cause if we are, then bye-bye our job; 2. Who in the world will start blaming himself for something, better and easy to blame in your problems someone else. And its not corporate sh** or anything else. No, its way easy. Human nature.
Secon part of this quote sounds is totaly b******t and to save time, i'll just send you to re-read Nova's about that.
2.
Kingsglaive. And when I name Kingsglaive I refer not just the royal glaives but the film itself. Some of you may know that the royal glaives was an idea from Tabata, but what you dont know is the HATE Nomuras team have because they DO NOT understand why they first wasted so, much resources in making the film, BUT why they did not put Noctis as the main character instead of creating Nyx to replace him. They did not understand several decisions they made when they were making FFXV.
They DO NOT understand? I'm sorry what? WTF is this.
It has been reported and not once, that it was done due to lacking of time and, you will be surprised, resources. Why is that, you will ask. Well, maybe we must thank previous team which was working under project and our damn management? No? It's so easy to be damn critic nowadays and criticize everything, especially when you were cut off from the project.
And one more thing about Kingsglaive, from my life. Last year i finally managed to make my mother to watch Kingsglaive. She is, well, not quite young and far-far from game and nowadays cinema industry, but you know, she fall in love with that movie. In first werk she rewatched it almost 10 times, and each time she was crying during Regis and Nyx final moments. She preety easily got a story an what was about and fired up about that game. Ofc she wants to watch how im gonna play it, but im waiting when it will be completed and when we will have both time. What do i want to say by this? Movie did damn well job and only one important problem which can be called is different faces in movie and the game. That's all.

So, in the end, if you guys managed to get to the end of my post, i want to say some things, before someone will mocking me or something like that.
I don't have anything against you OP, at least at this moment, but if what your source told you is truth, it wont do any good at all nor for you neither them, Nomura's team. It will only show, how shitty ppl are in Nomura's team. At least in my eyes.
P.S. No offence OP. *PEACE*
P.S.2You kno guys? Keep what you were doing in another thread. Your's speculation at least doing good and positive job.
P.S.3 Lol, i just now saw the title of thread. Bravo OP with choosed name. Now im more convinced in my thoughts about all of this. GJ.
 
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SerjAngelo

Balamb Garden Freshman
Oct 28, 2017
34
41
25
#31
What many posters seem to miss about the OP's message regarding the Kingsglaive is that the team wasn't upset with the decision to make the movie itself, but why they made the main character Nyx and not Noctis (at least that's how I understand it).

Overall an interesting read, I definitely feel that omitting the dreams aspect for the sake of simplifying the story was not a good decision, and it's obvious that Noctis being asleep had a huge role in Versus due to his portrayal in promotional material, songs' lyrics, etc. If it really is legit, I thank you, Op, for sharing this with everyone.

Anyhow, my two cents on the whole V.XIII vs XV story debate: it's not always about the story or characters themselves, but the way they are presented. At launch FFXV did not do a very great job presenting all its story and characters, some scenes felt rushed and lacked proper direction, which is why a lot of Versus fans and simply people who were waiting this game for so long were so upset. But since Ep. Prompto the these aspects are getting better and better so I really hope that the Royal Edition of the game will be a great game on its own and the fans will let go of Versus.
 
Likes: Storm

Jubileus

Warrior of Light
Oct 7, 2016
1,618
1,295
#32
It's a good question though: why didn't Kingsglaive star Noctis instead of Nyx?

That way, the issue of flashbacks or talks about what happened in the movie will be in the game.

The game could've started off where Noctis and the guys run away from Insomnia. Car broke down, they push it, but instead of the happy vibe, that's when it gets revealed to us that the guys are on the run.

Not much would need to be changed in the game if you think about it.
 
Feb 19, 2018
36
37
30
#33
The interesting thing about the world of dreams is that it sounds like it was vague and interpretative like Kingdom Hearts. I’m not sure how that would have fit into an FF game.

I actually think Lupus was the bigger loss. He seemed like a much more interesting character than Ravus, and would have added more depth to the story.

Stella on the other hand sounded like a nothing character. The one thing I liked was her attitude, she always seemed like a blonde Rinoa to me. However Luna was pretty cool in the end as well.
 
Likes: Storm

Jubileus

Warrior of Light
Oct 7, 2016
1,618
1,295
#35
I think it would've been better received tbh.

A movie with the main cast instead of throw away characters would've been infinitely better since we would've gotten to know them more, and it would also form a bond with them before we even play the game.

Not to mention the depth of character exposition that would've been explored if the main cast starred in the movie instead.
 

SerjAngelo

Balamb Garden Freshman
Oct 28, 2017
34
41
25
#36
I think it would've been better received tbh.
True, from a perspective of a fan who for sure would've watched the majority if not all the "FFXV Universe" stuff.

But there's also so many folks who played this game without watching the movie/anime, etc.
Hiding the main characters' crucial experiences that directly relate to the story would be a big offender for those people.
In this regard, the best solution in terms of user experience would be to just to include this in the game as a playable prologue, as it initially meant to be. But this didn't pan out due to budget/time, etc.
 

Jubileus

Warrior of Light
Oct 7, 2016
1,618
1,295
#37
True, from a perspective of a fan who for sure would've watched the majority if not all the "FFXV Universe" stuff.

But there's also so many folks who played this game without watching the movie/anime, etc.
Hiding the main characters' crucial experiences that directly relate to the story would be a big offender for those people.
In this regard, the best solution in terms of user experience would be to just to include this in the game as a playable prologue, as it initially meant to be. But this didn't pan out due to budget/time, etc.
They're kinda already doing that now tbh.

Except now, both the fans and newcomers get the short end of the stick with how they approached the movie.
 
Likes: SerjAngelo

Jubileus

Warrior of Light
Oct 7, 2016
1,618
1,295
#39
This guy would be the one who has been fused with Lupus then.
1. That lamb DP is extremely adorable

2. I remember seeing that character and thinking who he was in the final product. He had a pretty cool design.

Kind of like the blonde version of Cor. He’s got the badass vibe.
 

Storm

Warrior of Light
Oct 26, 2013
2,664
4,150
26
#40
This guy would be the one who has been fused with Lupus then.
maybe this char was the son of Iedolas, but yeah in one of the storyboards you can see him with soldiers fighting leviathan

i think he was a commander and that role was transferred to Ravus.