Final Fantasy XV - General News Thread

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T.O.T

Blitzball Champion
Feb 2, 2017
504
488
I am simply stating my opinions and thoughts. I don't own anybody a fully researched post backing everything I say up. I'd rather spend that time focusing on my social life and career. You can always ignore my posts if you don't like them :)
On the other hand, if you choose to engage on a public platform that's formed around discussion, then you should be prepared to back up some of your points, especially ones that may/do come across as pretty extreme. If you're just wanting to throw out your thoughts and not ever be questioned on it, then forums aren't for you. I think Twitter would be a better platform for you in that case.
 

Bazztek

SeeD A-Class
May 26, 2014
660
1,750
in XV's case, it sure as hell does
Do you have a single fact to back that up?

you are just delusional
Now this is pot meeting kettle.

And second of all, I sure as hell will call you out on your stupidity and verbal diarrhea on here.
Generally you should be informed about what it is you are posting about before you try and make any sweeping generalizations about something like you are doing here, you still cannot back up a single thing you have said because you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

Negative? You mean calling you out on your stupidity is a negative? Seems like a positive to me.

half the time incorrect
Do you have a single fact to back that up?

and overall just disgusting opinions.
So stating factual and generally informative posts while also on occasion posting my opinions is now "disgusting"? Lmao? Get over yourself Vallen.
 
Likes: mozzafaralj

Bazztek

SeeD A-Class
May 26, 2014
660
1,750
To be fair, there are some associations between tech and the quality of gameplay and story... they're just far more complicated than a company needing to choose between putting resources in the "tech" or "gameplay and story" baskets. =P

1) Visual fidelity in character models and animations can have two different effects... which, ironically, operate in opposite directions:
- a. Low visual fidelity leaves far more room for imagination, which for some players transforms a limited or even unambitious story into an unsurpassed epic. It also enforces a certain level of exaggeration and makes it far less likely for imperfections to ruin the overall effect.
- b. High visual fidelity, when used properly, can create a far more immediate connection with the player's emotions, as the characters' reactions can be portrayed down to the slightest detail.

(Note that voiceovers increase both the positive and negative effects of visual fidelity.)

2) 3D environments tend to require a very different scale than 2D environment, which makes things particularly weird for RPGs that rely on random battles -- 2D RPGs tend to have very high encounter rates and much shorter travel distances than a 3D game could possibly allow. This inevitably alters the pace of the game (which isn't necessarily a good or bad thing, but is definitely different).
- a. One rather strange consequence of this is a change in the type of music used within environments. Since you're stuck in the same area for longer, there's a tendency to move away from repeating catchy, melodic tunes towards unobtrusive atmospheric pieces, which can seem like a major downgrade if you liked listening to the former kind of tunes on their own merits.

3) 3D games tend to have a much, much longer iteration time than 2D games did, especially when they use GI solutions that aren't fully realtime. This can be a big disadvantage with regards to both gameplay and story, since it makes it much more difficult to test things to see what works and what doesn't. With that said, this is one area where increasing tech might actually make things better, since pathtracing would render baked lighting a thing of the past.
I get where you're coming from though I'm not really arguing that tech or hardware restrictions can't have an impact on story or gameplay, I'm arguing that advancement of tech and/or the focus of implementing more advanced tech into a game doesn't negatively impair gameplay/story like Vallen is trying to imply. How a dev intends to use the tech is a different thing entirely to the tech itself existing too.

On the note of imagination having story impact, the mimesis through imagination and the intended written narrative are two very different things but it's true that through lower fidelity that imagination can play a part in how the narrative is perceived, but here's my point, with more advanced tech you can still make something low fidelity if you want, see the influx of 2D pixel based or low poly 3D indie games which are now being made much more frequently compared to 4 generations ago because of the resources and tech being available to anyone, which is a result of advacement in technology itself, you can also make something higher fidelity as much as the engine you are using allows.
I'd also argue it's the quality of the voice acting itself that could affect the perception to be positive or negative, and not the fact that there is voice acting to begin with, also it's not like every game is designed with voice acting in mind to begin with but that's neither here nor there.

Regarding 3D environments, FF7, 8 and 9's 3D world map don't really differ that much to what FF1-6 were doing regarding random encounters or the scale of their maps, it's more deliberate design choices for how they chose to design the maps. Regaring 3D maps too, in fact it was because of map streaming restrictions itself on 7th gen platforms that was the main reason why Nomura even said he wanted to move XV to 8th gen platforms as it would allow them to alleviate their map streaming issues they had on the PS3 version when they tested it in 2012, so more frequently you'll see something a dev can't do because of a limitation or restriction in the available older tech and older hardware, rather than the new tech being the one to cause them to not be able to do something.

Baked GI is iterative when implementing true but the same goes for most processes when making a game, the use of it alone isn't what would impair a story or gameplay element, like KH3's story being bad isn't because it was using baked lighting, it was bad because the writer wrote a bad story.

I'm also not arguing about length of development either, even regarding that there a many other factors to consider like budget, dev team size, decisions from higher up and so on. If there was anything that prevented the XV team from doing something story/gameplay related that they wanted to do, it was not because of tech, it was time, budget and decisions from higher ups. A lot of the things they added as free updates in 2017 were things they had wanted to do by launch but didn't have enough time/resources to devote to those in the 3 years timepan they were allotted to release the game by, and yes things get cut, every game has cut content, but my point to Vallen is specifically that advancement of tech is not the reason for a game not being able to implement certain story or gameplay content.
 
Likes: mozzafaralj
May 15, 2018
42
25
I see you don't actually know what you are talking about. Next you'll say graphics tech advances comes at the expense of something like sound design, or that sound design comes at the expense of plot or gameplay, or that fucking texture resolution comes at the expense of plot. If you don't actually know anything about graphics technology or how games are made then stop posting, because it's embarrassing to read every time you post when you're clueless about everything you ever say. They are not mutually exclusive nor do the have any adverse negative affect on one another, a person in charge of writing a plot or gameplay planning has nothing to do with graphics implementation on the technical side, the people making the advancements in technology aren't somehow going up to the scenario writers or gameplay planners and telling them they can't put so and so story or so and so gameplay in.

By your own logic the fact that devs started using newer engines with more advanced technology instead of sticking to old ass engines from gens ago means that gameplay and plot are being negatively affected because of advancement in technology, essentially you are saying that a game using UE4 is being negatively affected in its plot and gameplay than a game running on UE3, or the same for UE3 from UE2. Bro please tell me how did games starting to use DoF when that was first introduced into 3D game engines negatively affect gameplay and plot? How did games using real time GI negatively affect gameplay and plot? How did games using real time Physically based rendering and Image-based lighting come at the expense of gameplay and plot? How did the introduction of audio streaming instead of using soundfonts with midi come at the expense of plot and gameplay? How did the introduction of 3D movement in a 3D environment come at the expense of story and gameplay for gaming? How did the use of texture data and bump mapping in video games come at the expense of gameplay and plot? You know things like that didn't just always exist in games, right?
Dude, chill
 

Ikkin

Warrior of Light
Oct 30, 2016
1,019
1,533
I get where you're coming from though I'm not really arguing that tech or hardware restrictions can't have an impact on story or gameplay, I'm arguing that advancement of tech and/or the focus of implementing more advanced tech into a game doesn't negatively impair gameplay/story like Vallen is trying to imply. How a dev intends to use the tech is a different thing entirely to the tech itself existing too.
Well, I'd argue that while advanced tech does not, in and of itself, impair gameplay or story, some forms of gameplay and some stories can be negatively impacted by greater or lesser levels of technical ambition. ;)

On the note of imagination having story impact, the mimesis through imagination and the intended written narrative are two very different things but it's true that through lower fidelity that imagination can play a part in how the narrative is perceived, but here's my point, with more advanced tech you can still make something low fidelity if you want, see the influx of 2D pixel based or low poly 3D indie games which are now being made much more frequently compared to 4 generations ago because of the resources and tech being available to anyone, which is a result of advacement in technology itself, you can also make something higher fidelity as much as the engine you are using allows.
I'd also argue it's the quality of the voice acting itself that could affect the perception to be positive or negative, and not the fact that there is voice acting to begin with, also it's not like every game is designed with voice acting in mind to begin with but that's neither here nor there.
While it's possible to choose to use lower fidelity, that's not really relevant to my point, because my point is based on the impact that results from the choice to increase the level of fidelity. ;)

Regarding 3D environments, FF7, 8 and 9's 3D world map don't really differ that much to what FF1-6 were doing regarding random encounters or the scale of their maps, it's more deliberate design choices for how they chose to design the maps. Regaring 3D maps too, in fact it was because of map streaming restrictions itself on 7th gen platforms that was the main reason why Nomura even said he wanted to move XV to 8th gen platforms as it would allow them to alleviate their map streaming issues they had on the PS3 version when they tested it in 2012, so more frequently you'll see something a dev can't do because of a limitation or restriction in the available older tech and older hardware, rather than the new tech being the one to cause them to not be able to do something.
Well, I'd argue that FFVII/VIII/IX's 3D world maps are a rather different sort of thing than modern, realistically scaled world maps... and they are able to function the way they do because of the low level of graphical fidelity of the game they were part of. There's a reason why Nomura gave up on an abstractly-scaled world map for Versus XIII -- it just looks weird when you increase the graphical fidelity too much.

And, yeah, I completely agree that limitations on older tech can make it impossible for a dev to make a particular choice. I'm just saying that it works both ways sometimes.

Baked GI is iterative when implementing true but the same goes for most processes when making a game, the use of it alone isn't what would impair a story or gameplay element, like KH3's story being bad isn't because it was using baked lighting, it was bad because the writer wrote a bad story.
My point about baked GI (which applies equally to other processes that increase the iteration time) isn't that it makes the story or gameplay bad on its own. My point is that, as a result of the increased iteration time, the developers have fewer opportunities to test small changes to the game. An SNES developer could probably make a whole bunch of tiny tweaks without wasting a lot of time recompiling stuff; a PS4 developer can't.

I'm also not arguing about length of development either, even regarding that there a many other factors to consider like budget, dev team size, decisions from higher up and so on. If there was anything that prevented the XV team from doing something story/gameplay related that they wanted to do, it was not because of tech, it was time, budget and decisions from higher ups. A lot of the things they added as free updates in 2017 were things they had wanted to do by launch but didn't have enough time/resources to devote to those in the 3 years timepan they were allotted to release the game by, and yes things get cut, every game has cut content, but my point to Vallen is specifically that advancement of tech is not the reason for a game not being able to implement certain story or gameplay content.
Time, budget, and decisions from higher-ups are critical, yes... but, it's worth noting, that each and every one of those factors is affected by the choices made about graphical fidelity. Greater graphical fidelity requires more time and a higher budget for the same content, and the higher-ups make their decisions accordingly.

My position ultimately comes down to this: yes, if you had an unlimited budget and unlimited time, there is no story or gameplay content that could be implemented at low fidelity that could not be implemented at greater fidelity. However, some story and gameplay content is more feasible in budgetary and temporal terms at low fidelity than high fidelity... just as some story and gameplay content is impractical at low fidelity on a weak system. TL; DR, it's complicated.
 

SonOfEtro

SOLDIER, First Class
May 2, 2016
965
1,032
DotF up on UK Amazon now too, with the same pre-order date. Oh well, guess there was some kind of delay.

Came across an old interview with Kingsglaive director Takeshi Nozue. Hosted by Toei Animation, he described his work on the project. Here's a few key points as the interview is quite long.

*This was Square Enix's first major collaboration with Western companies for a project like this. Their previous efforts were almost entirely in-house.
*The team went for 110 minutes as the ideal length for their project, not to short and not too long and within their skill set. They split the movie into three acts, finishing scripting and then production on each act in turn.
*In contrast to the impossible angles of Advent Children, Nozoe wanted to make the camera angles in Kingsglaive as realistic as possible, as if a real camera were there. They also didn't go for a lot of slow motion and such.
*The script writer Takashi Hasegawa acted more as a script doctor to the FF team's efforts. They wanted someone who could agree to make the script appear like something from Hollywood (explains a lot...). There was a lot of discussion about it, and since there were Western writers involved as well, the meetings had to take place early in the morning due to time zone differences.
*Nozoe wanted the movie to be different from the FF stylistic norm. AKA, he didn't want people thinking "Nomura" when they saw Kingsglaive.
*One of the reasons Aaron Paul was cast was because he had experience dubbing for CGI/animated projects due to his role in Tron: Uprising.
*Apparently the film was only half-finished with just two and a half months of production time left. ARGH! It took a huge effort from all concerned to get it finished and polished in time.
*If this kind of project happens again, there will be more than one director. Apparently this project would've never gotten off the ground if all the companies involved hadn't been fans of FF.

So there it is. Looks like the project was even more hectic than I first thought. LET THE BITTER AND REPETITIVE ARGUMENTS COMMENCE!
 
Last edited:

Storm

Warrior of Light
Oct 26, 2013
3,208
5,658
28
Switzerland
DotF up on UK Amazon now too, with the same pre-order date. Oh well, guess there was some kind of delay.

Came across an old interview with Kingsglaive director Takeshi Nozue. Hosted by Toei Animation, he described his work on the project. Here's a few key points as the interview is quite long.

*This was Square Enix's first major collaboration with Western companies for a project like this. Their previous efforts were almost entirely in-house.
*The team went for 110 minutes as the ideal length for their project, not to short and not too long and within their skill set. They split the movie into three acts, finishing scripting and then production on each act in turn.
*In contrast to the impossible angles of Advent Children, Nozoe wanted to make the camera angles in Kingsglaive as realistic as possible, as if a real camera were there. They also didn't go for a lot of slow motion and such.
*The script writer Takashi Hasegawa acted more as a script doctor to the FF team's efforts. They wanted someone who could agree to make the script appear like something from Hollywood (explains a lot...). There was a lot of discussion about it, and since there were Western writers involved as well, the meetings had to take place early in the morning due to time zone differences.
*Nozoe wanted the movie to be different from the FF stylistic norm. AKA, he didn't want people thinking "Nomura" when they saw Kingsglaive.
*One of the reasons Aaron Paul was cast was because he had experience dubbing for CGI/animated projects due to his role in Tron: Uprising.
*Apparently the film was only half-finished with just two and a half months of production time left. ARGH! It took a huge effort from all concerned to get it finished and polished in time.
*If this kind of project happens again, there will be more than one director. Apparently this project would've never gotten off the ground if all the companies involved hadn't been fans of FF.

So there it is. Looks like the project was even more hectic than I first thought. LET THE BITTER AND REPETITIVE ARGUMENTS COMMENCE!
I wish it went a bit more Nomura tbh, the movie played safe with its themes, and characterization was on the bland side.

thanks for translating!
 

SonOfEtro

SOLDIER, First Class
May 2, 2016
965
1,032
I wish it went a bit more Nomura tbh, the movie played safe with its themes, and characterization was on the bland side.
I agree the characterisation and themes were a little overly safe (though as "fantasy based on reality" and such a limited production period they didn't have much wiggle room), but I don't have much attachment to many of Nomura's designs so I enjoyed that aspect. I prefer Yoshida, Itahana and Amano out of the mainline FF artists.
 

SonOfEtro

SOLDIER, First Class
May 2, 2016
965
1,032
Speaking of artists, out of curiosity what do you guys think of Roberto Ferrari's work?
I really liked his designs for Type-0 and XV. Looking forward to seeing more of his work on VII Remake. He should really get his own game, where he gets to create the main characters. I think his strength lies in creating something ordinary and not too taxing, but still incredible and arresting in its design. if you want an example, Arecia al-Rashia is one of his.