I'm still confused about the whole multiple translations issue with Ifrit and the meteor causing the starscourge. That was my assumption for a long time until I found out that only like one translation of the game mentions that.
I think in that particular moment (due to the hurt being so fresh) and on the surface in general he displays strong feelings of wanting to fuck everyone over but in the end deep down he's also probably just tired and wants it to end and I don't think Ardyn really gives a shit as to how it ends by the time he faces Noct. Under all the layers of trauma there's gotta be a glimmer of the old Ardyn who just wants to move on and rest considering that even after the 2,000 year imprisonment he was still thanking the gods for the food on his plate and objecting to Verstael's suggestions of revenge. It isn't until after Verstael relentlessly egging him on and his fight with Ifrit digging up all of his repressed trauma that he begins to indulge in the idea of revenge again.
He seems like he's just doing everything just for the sake of doing it and getting it over with by the end. Considering it's been like 40 years since Bahamut's revelation to him when the main game happens his rage probably isn't burning as intensely as it used to in Episode Ardyn. Even the most petty person's anger eventually subsides with enough time.
The reason I say this is because:
1) Despite him seemingly declaring that he hates Aera for lying, when the moment comes to kill Luna (who looks just like Aera) he shows some hesitation when she starts speaking to him and he has what seems like a moment of self reflection but of course he's too far gone at that point and he's gotta see things through so he slaps her aside and puts on the villainous madman facade again and pushes onward.
2) Despite saying he'll lure out Noct and kill him Ardyn doesn't strike him down the first chance he gets in order send a big old "fuck you" to Bahamut which would be the most logical course of action for someone who doesn't want to play by the rules anymore. Yet despite the fact that at the end of Episode Ardyn he never makes mention of wanting to fight Noctis at full power he still helps him out a great deal and I think it's fair to say that without Ardyn intervening at certain key moments Noct would've never even made it to Altissia let alone to the Crystal. He doesn't ever go out of his way to kill the bros either and none of their major injuries are inflicted by him. He just torments them enough to spur Noct on but right up until the final fight he never kills them to try and break Noct despite it being really easy for him to do so. Even Luna can't be considered a direct kill of his as a stab wound in the stomach can be treated if given care in time. Luna's death actually comes at the hands of Leviathan's temper tantrum. Really, Ravus is the only one he actually ends up killing with his own hands out of the whole main cast. Everyone else is just a casualty of Bahamut's plan to have him spread the plague until Noct stops him.
3) Lastly, in his final moments there seems to be a mutual unspoken understanding between the him and Noctis. He even courteously greets Noctis in the afterlife before the final blow and goes from the physical world rather peacefully too. That, to me, screams that he's ok with just going at that point regardless of whether he won or lost in the end.
Just like people in real life I think Ardyn had a lot of clashing feelings and despite him outwardly becoming the villain everyone wanted him to be I don't think the gentle soul of a healer every truly left him, it just got buried under a shit ton of baggage. Think of it like Darth Vader being angry his whole life and his rage being the strongest when he was first betrayed but deep down Anakin still lives even if barely. In the end those little bits of Anakin Skywalker shine through again when he meets Luke but despite him wanting to be with his son he continues on his dark path because that's what the world turned him into and he's too far gone to really turn back from it all so he suppresses it until the final moments where he's just so tired from it all that he goes out being his old self again. Ardyn's old self shines also through ever so slightly as the story begins reaching its end imo and by the time of the final blow I think he's not going out as the King of Darkness anymore but as tired old Ardyn.
Also just my personal head canon but I'd like to believe that the alternate title screen after completing Episode Ardyn is him finally having his peace with Aera in the afterlife just like Noctis and Luna. Both of them are even sleeping together as a parallel to Noct and Luna.
Indeed, if Ardyn really followed the role proposed by Bahamut then it wouldnt be hard to imagine that him and Aera were rewarded with eternal sleep just like Luna and Noctis.
Interesting you should say that. The Famitsu interview actually has answered questions about Bahamut's role. It's said that while Bahamut isn't behind the Daemons/Shigai per say, there is a hidden reasoning behind his seeking to first spread their influence across Eos while also empowering Noctis's line. He also knows about how it began, but isn't sharing. Basically Bahamut is described as a "mastermind" behind events. These questions would've been answered in Episodes Luna and Noctis, and will be answered in Dawn of the Future.
You know, this is starting to sound like the Daemons and Starscourge are remnants of an old enemy of the Astrals or something.
In game, if Bahamut didn't told Ardyn he has to destroy the world, he would have killed Regis and Noctis, King of Light, would never been born and the world would be destroyed by the darkness.
Probably this will be developed by the novel and they will tell something like "the starscourge would have destroyed the gods too" or "they want to rule mankind once they're weak".
But being that cancelled and outside the game, i can decide to follow that continuation or decide it's not part of the main story in the same way I ignore every sequel content from X.
So, right now for me, Bahamut stoped Ardyn from killing Regis, so Noctis can be born and save the world from darkness.
Indeed, if Ardyn really followed the role proposed by Bahamut then it wouldnt be hard to imagine that him and Aera were rewarded with eternal sleep just like Luna and Noctis.
Wonder if we'll see that in the book, surprised Aera isn't present in the happy ending artwork that they announced DoTF with. Seems like it would only make sense for her to be there with all of them.
Wonder if we'll see that in the book, surprised Aera isn't present in the happy ending artwork that they announced DoTF with. Seems like it would only make sense for her to be there with all of them.
When the Dawn of Future artwork was presented Luminous Studio said it's a representation of what they plan to convey and what the protagonists will fight for.
But i'm pretty sure we will never see that scene happen ingame.
Nah when she's healing his arm and giving her usual Oracle speech about darkness and such Ardyn actually goes quiet for a moment before he gives her his retort and slaps her aside. That part's always stood out to me but I guess that's just my interpretation of it.
When the Dawn of Future artwork was presented Luminous Studio said it's a representation of what they plan to convey and what the protagonists will fight for.
But i'm pretty sure we will never see that scene happen ingame.
Yeah but if they knew what they were gonna do with the DLC, wouldn't they have already known that Aera is the "good ending" that Ardyn would be fighting against fate for? Seems odd to me that she's not there given her supposed place in DoTF based on what we saw in Episode Ardyn. Just my take on it, we'll see if she shows up by the end in the book.
I think in that particular moment (due to the hurt being so fresh) and on the surface in general he displays strong feelings of wanting to fuck everyone over but in the end deep down he's also probably just tired and wants it to end and I don't think Ardyn really gives a shit as to how it ends by the time he faces Noct. Under all the layers of trauma there's gotta be a glimmer of the old Ardyn who just wants to move on and rest considering that even after the 2,000 year imprisonment he was still thanking the gods for the food on his plate and objecting to Verstael's suggestions of revenge. It isn't until after Verstael relentlessly egging him on and his fight with Ifrit digging up all of his repressed trauma that he begins to indulge in the idea of revenge again.
He seems like he's just doing everything just for the sake of doing it and getting it over with by the end. Considering it's been like 40 years since Bahamut's revelation to him when the main game happens his rage probably isn't burning as intensely as it used to in Episode Ardyn. Even the most petty person's anger eventually subsides with enough time.
[...]
Just like people in real life I think Ardyn had a lot of clashing feelings and despite him outwardly becoming the villain everyone wanted him to be I don't think the gentle soul of a healer every truly left him, it just got buried under a shit ton of baggage. Think of it like Darth Vader being angry his whole life and his rage being the strongest when he was first betrayed but deep down Anakin still lives even if barely. In the end those little bits of Anakin Skywalker shine through again when he meets Luke but despite him wanting to be with his son he continues on his dark path because that's what the world turned him into and he's too far gone to really turn back from it all so he suppresses it until the final moments where he's just so tired from it all that he goes out being his old self again. Ardyn's old self shines also through ever so slightly as the story begins reaching its end imo and by the time of the final blow I think he's not going out as the King of Darkness anymore but as tired old Ardyn.
Also just my personal head canon but I'd like to believe that the alternate title screen after completing Episode Ardyn is him finally having his peace with Aera in the afterlife just like Noctis and Luna. Both of them are even sleeping together as a parallel to Noct and Luna.
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I feel like Ardyn post-Angelgard might no longer have anything even resembling a stable personality, but the person he used to be before his corruption still exists deep down within that chaos.
Ardyn's personality being unstable actually explains a lot of seeming inconsistencies in his behavior. He helps Noct because he wouldn't find it satisfying to kill Noct before Noct reached his full potential, but he also considers stabbing Noct just for the heck of it in Altissia. He doesn't actually seem interested in causing permanent damage to Noct's friends, but he's also willing to use Ignis' death and Prompto's torture to motivate Noct. He wants to burn Insomnia to the ground, but also says that it's a pitiable waste when he finally succeeds at doing so through the invasion. And he submits to Bahamut before apparently changing his mind and deciding that what he really wants is to cover the world in eternal darkness. He doesn't even seem to be acting like the same person sometimes... but that actually makes a lot of sense for someone whose personality was transformed from one that was legitimately his to a conglomerate of the fear and rage of thousands decades ago.
With that said, I do think that the Ardyn that Noct fought really wanted to kill him and spread eternal darkness. It was only when Noct exhausted Ardyn's daemonic energy through a marathon fight that the real Ardyn was able to emerge and accept the rest that he had finally been granted.
I definitely agree about the alternate title screen, by the way. I love the idea that, once all is said and done, Ardyn is able to find sufficient forgiveness within himself to be at peace with Aera once more.
So, I've been reading a lot about how Episode Ardyn change the story for worst.
But I don't see it that way:
Episode Ardyn ends with Bahamut being a big piece of shit with Ardyn. And there's people that thinks this makes Bahamut the true villain.
At my eyes, Bahamut is a pragmatic manipulative God.
Even if he is the cause of death to all our heroes, he does it so the world can be saved. Everytime he interferes is to guide people to saving the world from the starscourge.
At start we thought he was an heroic ruler for how we saw him speak to Noctis. Vowing to him. But now we see it was probably a facade to push him into sacrificing himself.
This in human culture is considered a dick move. But at the end we have to remember that the Gods granted Luna and Noct a happy afterlife. And the after credits menu of Episode Ardyn makes me think they did the same with Ardyn and Aera.
So, even if he was an asshole, he provided an innecesary good deed at the end. Which at my eyes makes me see him as a mercyful God at his core.
Can't wait to see how the novel tells me i'm wrong and throws a massive dump into my perspective.
The good thing about the Dawn of the Future expansion being completed through a novel is that there's no need to consider it canon to the original game. Terada already admitted that he intentionally changed the role of the Astrals for the expansion, so canon could easily be kept more consistent without integrating aspects from the AU novel.
And speaking of which...
...the interesting thing about Bahamut being awful to Ardyn is that it's mostly confined to the non-canon "reject your fate" ending that was meant to tie in to the Dawn of the Future expansion. Everything he says before the player's decision and everything he says in the "submit" route simply suggests that he is completely fatalistic (in a compatibilist way that still allows human beings to bear true responsibility for their actions), not that he is being intentionally cruel to Ardyn.
As such, I don't think there's any need to reinterpret how Bahamut spoke to Noctis. Noct was simply an ally rather than a useful adversary. And, as you said, it does seem like Bahamut granted Ardyn and Aera peaceful rest once their callings were fulfilled, so it's not like he intended to throw them away once he was done with them.
Basically, the DLC cancellation effectively preserved the original game's themes of accepting reality for what it is and walking tall when facing one's destiny, which is... kind of a neat trick.
Interesting you should say that. The Famitsu interview actually has answered questions about Bahamut's role. It's said that while Bahamut isn't behind the Daemons/Shigai per say, there is a hidden reasoning behind his seeking to first spread their influence across Eos while also empowering Noctis's line. He also knows about how it began, but isn't sharing. Basically Bahamut is described as a "mastermind" behind events. These questions would've been answered in Episodes Luna and Noctis, and will be answered in Dawn of the Future.
You know, this is starting to sound like the Daemons and Starscourge are remnants of an old enemy of the Astrals or something.
Perhaps, but it also seems like a complete shift in motivations from the main game, and I am very glad that we're learning about it through an AU novel rather than through something that would be more easily confused with canon. >_<
Given that Terada apparently took credit for adding the concept of betrayal by the gods, I suspect that the answer will probably not be "the daemons are remnants of an old enemy of the Astrals and Bahamut knows they can only be defeated in a very particular way" but rather something more like "Bahamut wants to cull humanity before they get too dangerous again, then use the end of the plague to increase humanity's dependence on the Astrals."
Interesting you should say that. The Famitsu interview actually has answered questions about Bahamut's role. It's said that while Bahamut isn't behind the Daemons/Shigai per say, there is a hidden reasoning behind his seeking to first spread their influence across Eos while also empowering Noctis's line. He also knows about how it began, but isn't sharing. Basically Bahamut is described as a "mastermind" behind events. These questions would've been answered in Episodes Luna and Noctis, and will be answered in Dawn of the Future.
You know, this is starting to sound like the Daemons and Starscourge are remnants of an old enemy of the Astrals or something
if thats correct, the book will have information valid for the main canon then, while the character choices and events may differ, the rules of the lore could be the same.
Bahamut is becoming more and more interesting as a character, contrary to the other gods he never went to sleep, hes always the one talking inside the crystal. He clearly is the boss in the pantheon.
if thats correct, the book will have information valid for the main canon then, while the character choices and events may differ, the rules of the lore could be the same.
Bahamut is becoming more and more interesting as a character, contrary to the other gods he never went to sleep, hes always the one talking inside the crystal. He clearly is the boss in the pantheon.
Nah, we know that Terada changed the Astrals' role in the story. He might have intended to make his reinterpretation valid for the main canon, but it's pretty clear that it would have been a retcon (and probably a retcon of the sort that would actually undermine the original game).
Right. We got an original draft by Kazushige Nojima and Tetsuya Nomura based on the FNC. Then the draft was given to the main writing team of Saori Itamuro, Akiko Ishibashi and Takumi Nishida, with contributions from Hajime Tabata. Then the Dawn of the Future narrative was created by Toru Osanai and Takefumi Terada, with each extant and cancelled entry in the DLC tetralogy being handled by their own writer.
Nah, we know that Terada changed the Astrals' role in the story. He might have intended to make his reinterpretation valid for the main canon, but it's pretty clear that it would have been a retcon (and probably a retcon of the sort that would actually undermine the original game).
the interview says his motivations fir Ardyn and Noctis would be expanded in the novel, which makes me think certain information is also valid to the canon.
the interview says his motivations fir Ardyn and Noctis would be expanded in the novel, which makes me think certain information is also valid to the canon.
"Terada (Episode Ardyn and Episode Ignis director) contributed a lot of his own ideas for Ardyn, such as getting betrayed by the gods."
And, when the OP was asked about that particular revelation, he added,
"I don't have an original transcipt, but to my understanding, [Ardyn being betrayed by the gods] was something that Terada concieved for this DLC."
The Japanese ATR stream still exists, of course, so it would be nice to get a more complete translation of important stuff like this (and like the novel excerpts that were read on the stream). But, for now, this is what I've been working from to demonstrate that Terada pushed for a retcon involving the role of the Astrals.
"Terada (Episode Ardyn and Episode Ignis director) contributed a lot of his own ideas for Ardyn, such as getting betrayed by the gods."
And, when the OP was asked about that particular revelation, he added,
"I don't have an original transcipt, but to my understanding, [Ardyn being betrayed by the gods] was something that Terada concieved for this DLC."
The Japanese ATR stream still exists, of course, so it would be nice to get a more complete translation of important stuff like this (and like the novel excerpts that were read on the stream). But, for now, this is what I've been working from to demonstrate that Terada pushed for a retcon involving the role of the Astrals.
well you could say that the Crystal betrayed Ardyn even on og FFXV, by completely ignoring his suffering and letting a dick taking the throne.
the idea that the gods betrayed him doesnt clash with anything previously established as far as I know, it just adds to the idea that the Crystal also couldnt care less.
that they are adding new story and ideas is no surprise though, especially for the latest dlcs, apparently Aera was created later during Ep Ardyns development since there were no traces of her name early on, according to a dataminer on ffxv discord that is.
well you could say that the Crystal betrayed Ardyn even on og FFXV, by completely ignoring his suffering and letting a dick taking the throne.
the idea that the gods betrayed him doesnt clash with anything previously established as far as I know, it just adds to the idea that the Crystal also couldnt care less.
that they are adding new story and ideas is no surprise though, especially for the latest dlcs, apparently Aera was created later during Ep Ardyns development since there were no traces of her name early on, according to a dataminer on ffxv discord that is.
Somnus wasn't even a jerk until Episode Ardyn Prologue, except from Ardyn's perspective. And, if Ardyn wasn't given his powers for the express purpose of having him become the host for the Starscourge, the Crystal wouldn't be betraying him by ignoring his suffering -- depending on the circumstances under which Ardyn became the Scourge's host, it could even be punishing him for misusing his abilities.
Basically, while they were able to avoid direct contradiction, it also seems pretty clear that the way the player was intended to interpret Ardyn's role in the main game was very different from the way Episode Ardyn portrayed him. It no longer makes any sense for Bahamut to call Ardyn "Usurper," for instance, but the main game gave the player no reason to think Bahamut was withholding the truth.
I feel like they don't know what they are doing anymore...the movie didn't fit with the game, but now with all these dlcs and a book it's a total mess...
i sure do wish ff xvi will have a proper sequel instead of misleading dlcs....
I feel like they don't know what they are doing anymore...the movie didn't fit with the game, but now with all these dlcs and a book it's a total mess...
i sure do wish ff xvi will have a proper sequel instead of misleading dlcs....
Let's be honest -- FF sequels almost always go off the deep end anyway. At least FFXV managed to split the crazy stuff off into an alternate reality instead of having to fit ancient world-destroying mechs, summons powered by romantic intimacy, time paradoxes, or guiding souls into a replacement universe into a setting that wasn't designed for it. =P
The problem is, by retconning Bahamut's role into a more sinister one, they risked making the original game's conclusion less satisfying to a lot of players. What you have now is a ton of people who are frustrated that they don't get to beat up Bahamut, which is entirely contrary to the point of the original game.
I dont see it as a retcon, even though it wad added later it doesnt contradict any established info about him, which were pretty vague to begin with.
even before there were some suspecting Bahamut and all the inconsideration of the gods.
this is more akin to a plot-twist than anything, my interpretation is that Bahamut is the one that makes sure fate happens as it should, i dont see the need to beat him imo.
According to TV Tropes, retconning means "reframing past events to serve a current plot need." TV Tropes notes that, "The ideal retcon clarifies a question alluded to without adding excessive new questions. In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on."
I consider the change in Bahamut's characterization to be a problem because it does add excessive new questions, even if it avoids direct contradictions. And it's worth noting that the excessive new questions were clearly added on purpose to serve the needs of the AU expansion, which I consider even more troublesome.
Terada already admitted that he intentionally changed the role of the Astrals for the expansion, so canon could easily be kept more consistent without integrating aspects from the AU novel.
