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There are plenty of mods on steam that swap Noctis for various versions of Luna, someone would just need the motivation to make a video of it or take pictures. Now what we really need is someone to model Luna a new outfit similar to the one in the concept art included with the book, where she's wearing the black cloak.
Similar thing with the whole Crystal War in Agito XIII/Type-0, we know that 4 crystals originally existed in Eos in early story drafts, that could've been borrowed from Versus. And Verum Rex mentions KARMA, which is something Type-0 focuses on with the Spiral and that cycle being loosely based on Buddhism. So I could see that certain Versus ideas made it into XIII-2, LR and Type-0 like you say. Vague themes and disjointed concepts Nomura wanted to focus on in Versus will probably surface in different ways in KH and Verum Rex too, but not as direct.
Likes:
Storm
I just had a hot take theory about Dawn of The Future and Versus XIII; what if Episode Lunafreya and Episode Noctis were based on what finale chapter Versus XIII had? Thinking back to CloudBuster's post about the Odin vs Bahamut concept art, what if Versus XIII was going to end similarly to how Dawn of The Future ended? I'm not sure if that's even possible, as like I said, it's just a hot take theory that just popped up in my head, but all and all, if Dawn of The Future really did pull elements from the FNC, I think they were interesting here and made this more enjoyable than I thought when these DLCs were first revealed at PAX East./SPOILER]
Likes:
Lord_Ham_Mork
I wouldn't call that a hot take at all.
I like to joke that DotF Bahamut is Bhunivelze in dragon armor, but it's not just a joke. The ending of DotF is so close to the ending of Lightning Returns that I can't imagine that the two of them weren't drawing upon common source material. The Odin vs. Bahamut art just provides further evidence that said source material was part of FFXV at one point.
I like to joke that DotF Bahamut is Bhunivelze in dragon armor, but it's not just a joke. The ending of DotF is so close to the ending of Lightning Returns that I can't imagine that the two of them weren't drawing upon common source material. The Odin vs. Bahamut art just provides further evidence that said source material was part of FFXV at one point.
Likes:
Nova and Lord_Ham_Mork
You know, the interesting thing about lore is that there's almost always more in the background than there ever is shown in detail. It takes the Ultimania to know some of the most basic (by some lights, essential) lore from the likes of IV, V, VI, VIII and X. Many of those have some of the most straightforward storytelling in the entire franchise. Who are we to say that the devs didn't plan all this out beforehand in notes, and only included those elements in the narrative that would make a structured narrative that wouldn't overly confuse the player (which they were consciously trying to avoid after XIII). This whole issue is complicated because of XV's narrative, because it tells a more classic FF narrative of following destiny for the greater good, rather than the post-VII tales which focused on individuals and sweeping narratives that create a moral grey area. XV doesn't have that. At all. A failing in my view, but the story still works for what it is.
As to breaking the established lore.... In some ways, DotF does, but only in the narrowest sense. If you think about it, previous entries in the FF series that added things like this, whether through sequels or other media, have maintained an internal logic and haven't openly flouted or rewritten or broken previously established world rules. Given how much effort was put into the lore of XV, I doubt most of this was just pulled out of nowhere and tacked on from either an earlier draft or from entirely new material. From what I've read, there isn't anything overt in DotF that contradicts previously established rules and facts about the world of Eos. Also, they're keeping the characters quite consistent, just giving them opportunities to express their opinions in unexpected ways due to a shift in events.
As to any FNC connections that are being potentially forced into DotF,
One last thing, but I don't find the concept of alternate timelines at all incongruous. There's already plenty of hints in pre-Royal Edition material that there's multiple threads to history, but the Astrals and their chosen human representatives are following the one that leads to peace and an Eos cleansed of corruption without there needing to be any kind of planetary reboot (something that each of the Astrals seems capable and sometimes willing to do in both XV and the expanded lore). Heck, the devs even allowed for alternate timelines in their pre-Royal Edition timeline, long long before the concept of Dawn of the Future was greenlit.
(sorry for the long post, had a lot to get off my chest)
As to breaking the established lore.... In some ways, DotF does, but only in the narrowest sense. If you think about it, previous entries in the FF series that added things like this, whether through sequels or other media, have maintained an internal logic and haven't openly flouted or rewritten or broken previously established world rules. Given how much effort was put into the lore of XV, I doubt most of this was just pulled out of nowhere and tacked on from either an earlier draft or from entirely new material. From what I've read, there isn't anything overt in DotF that contradicts previously established rules and facts about the world of Eos. Also, they're keeping the characters quite consistent, just giving them opportunities to express their opinions in unexpected ways due to a shift in events.
As to any FNC connections that are being potentially forced into DotF,
Tabata himself said in the Scenario Ultimania that the core themes of FNC were carried over into XV, just without the terminology or explicit connections. It's still a question of whether to accept or deny a god-given fate. These parts are two sides of the question; one shows submission and acceptance, the other shows rebellion. One shows the contrition of the gods when their will is followed, the other shows their displeasure at defiance. in XV itself, Noctis, Lunafreya and Ardyn all follow predestined paths and are able to purge the Scourge as Bahamut wishes. In DotF, Ardyn's open defiance sets off a chain reaction which details all the Astrals' expectations.
One last thing, but I don't find the concept of alternate timelines at all incongruous. There's already plenty of hints in pre-Royal Edition material that there's multiple threads to history, but the Astrals and their chosen human representatives are following the one that leads to peace and an Eos cleansed of corruption without there needing to be any kind of planetary reboot (something that each of the Astrals seems capable and sometimes willing to do in both XV and the expanded lore). Heck, the devs even allowed for alternate timelines in their pre-Royal Edition timeline, long long before the concept of Dawn of the Future was greenlit.
(sorry for the long post, had a lot to get off my chest)
I don't think there's any getting around Bahamut having been effectively replaced with a different character.
Based on the summaries I read, Bahamut didn't decide to annihilate humanity because Ardyn messed up his plan. He'd already decided he wanted to do it back in the time of Solheim, and Ardyn's rebellion just forced him to change his methods slightly.
DotF Bahamut had also been far more terrible to the other five Astrals than it made sense for them to forgive. Shiva, Leviathan, Titan, and Ramuh all stood by and supported him twice within the canon timeline, which they wouldn't reasonably have done if he'd tried to kill them the last time they were awake.
DotF Bahamut had also been far more terrible to the other five Astrals than it made sense for them to forgive. Shiva, Leviathan, Titan, and Ramuh all stood by and supported him twice within the canon timeline, which they wouldn't reasonably have done if he'd tried to kill them the last time they were awake.
When it comes to the Astrals in XV, I think the only confirmed legitimate leak we have for FFXV in 2016 claimed that none of Astrals were Gods originally and were more like "forces of nature". Based on that I'm guessing the four crystals bestowed to various nations were kind of like the original Gods, the crystals in Type-0 were worshipped too and had a limited will, them being destroyed in the war with Niflheim would've probably thrown the world out of balance or something. Don't know if Pulse or Lindzei would've been important at all given they seemed to be more involved in the other FNC games, Versus heavily alludes to Etro and Bhunivelze having a presence though. I'm guessing Bhunivelze's role was similar to Bahamut's maybe, "the true figure lies asleep in the fantasy" is a quote from Versus, the Unseen Realm is described as the dream world of the crystal too, maybe Noctis would've been able to communicate with Bhunivelze while he was sleeping in crystal stasis? There are parallels.
Not really sure how Etro would've factored into everything, maybe she had some kind of connection to Stella? Was the tragedy of Versus XIII that Stella and/or Noctis had to sacrifice their lives to become the new Gods in the end? Bhunivelze was the god of light, Etro is the Goddess of death and controls chaos, Noctis' surname means light, Stella's country is Tenebrae associated with darkness. Wonder if that was their calling/focus? The logo at the end of XV with Noctis and Luna does make me speculate if that was something carried over from Versus, the falling asleep on the throne has become kind of an iconic thing. It's more food for thought, the English release for DotF can't come soon enough.
Not really sure how Etro would've factored into everything, maybe she had some kind of connection to Stella? Was the tragedy of Versus XIII that Stella and/or Noctis had to sacrifice their lives to become the new Gods in the end? Bhunivelze was the god of light, Etro is the Goddess of death and controls chaos, Noctis' surname means light, Stella's country is Tenebrae associated with darkness. Wonder if that was their calling/focus? The logo at the end of XV with Noctis and Luna does make me speculate if that was something carried over from Versus, the falling asleep on the throne has become kind of an iconic thing. It's more food for thought, the English release for DotF can't come soon enough.
Better than at least it being a contradicting trait from bahamut i suppose.
They really are making it seem, at least with the novel, that the games main ending is all a dream Noctis has as a vision of the future, and a vision given to Luna as well (of what he supposedly must do).
Regardless of what people think, i guess it would kind of help the jagged order of DLC we got post- release:
- Gladio: Hints at Somnus a decent amount, especially if you played it post game, it really connects to the royal edition
- Prompto: More Verstael, Aranea and Ardyn,
- Ignis: Much more Ardyn and the empire
- Ardyn: The cusp of the DLC we got, but it all shows Ardyn portrayed as more a tragic character.
- Aranea: Builds her up as a main character and introduces Sol. Sacrifices her self temporarily. We see that Niflheim really wasnt as evil as we thought and tragedy befell them
- Luna: Builds on Sol, revealing that main ending was a vision of the future, leading her to save aranea, become daemonified, and try and ask Ardyn for help. Defy their fate.
- Noctis: Noct sees everything his friends went through, sees the main ending, etc. Builds on the last 3 DLC and has them become party members. Alternative Ending by defying their fate and facing Bahamut.
Its....odd, but I actually kind of like the fragmented DLC episodes as a whole if it was painted in this way. You experience the main game, then fill in gaps, and if you personally didnt like the main games ending, you can take another interpretation the further you go with it.
Not to mention, we would have unofficially gotten 3 extra party members and maybe a party switch mechanic if these released.
Truly a shame as it was all in good fun nonetheless.
They really are making it seem, at least with the novel, that the games main ending is all a dream Noctis has as a vision of the future, and a vision given to Luna as well (of what he supposedly must do).
Regardless of what people think, i guess it would kind of help the jagged order of DLC we got post- release:
- Gladio: Hints at Somnus a decent amount, especially if you played it post game, it really connects to the royal edition
- Prompto: More Verstael, Aranea and Ardyn,
- Ignis: Much more Ardyn and the empire
- Ardyn: The cusp of the DLC we got, but it all shows Ardyn portrayed as more a tragic character.
- Aranea: Builds her up as a main character and introduces Sol. Sacrifices her self temporarily. We see that Niflheim really wasnt as evil as we thought and tragedy befell them
- Luna: Builds on Sol, revealing that main ending was a vision of the future, leading her to save aranea, become daemonified, and try and ask Ardyn for help. Defy their fate.
- Noctis: Noct sees everything his friends went through, sees the main ending, etc. Builds on the last 3 DLC and has them become party members. Alternative Ending by defying their fate and facing Bahamut.
Its....odd, but I actually kind of like the fragmented DLC episodes as a whole if it was painted in this way. You experience the main game, then fill in gaps, and if you personally didnt like the main games ending, you can take another interpretation the further you go with it.
Not to mention, we would have unofficially gotten 3 extra party members and maybe a party switch mechanic if these released.
Truly a shame as it was all in good fun nonetheless.
Likes:
Noctis_Caelum
Bahamut's motivations are so confusing.
So, yeah. It's not even internally consistent, never mind consistent with canon. =\
Like, okay.
According to Gentiana, Bahamut was convinced by the Astral War that humanity had to go. He attempted to use the other Astrals to do so but was unsuccessful.
(Luna apparently knew this all along, but she trusted Bahamut because ???)
The Starscourge happened... somehow (human darkness?). In spite of recently being so disgusted by human darkness that he wanted to destroy humanity over it, he comes up with a plan to stop the Scourge that requires Ardyn to spread darkness.
Bahamut continues intending to fix the scourge for 2000yrs until Ardyn refuses to spread darkness the way Bahamut asked and decides to spread darkness his own way instead.
Bahamut then makes Luna the new Ardyn. According to Gentiana, Bahamut's plan is to use Noct's light and Luna's darkness to wipe out humanity. (Luna is shocked, shocked I say.)
Luna and Noct decide to defy Bahamut, at which point he decides to wipe out humanity for their defiance (hadn't he already decided that? Whatever).
According to Gentiana, Bahamut was convinced by the Astral War that humanity had to go. He attempted to use the other Astrals to do so but was unsuccessful.
(Luna apparently knew this all along, but she trusted Bahamut because ???)
The Starscourge happened... somehow (human darkness?). In spite of recently being so disgusted by human darkness that he wanted to destroy humanity over it, he comes up with a plan to stop the Scourge that requires Ardyn to spread darkness.
Bahamut continues intending to fix the scourge for 2000yrs until Ardyn refuses to spread darkness the way Bahamut asked and decides to spread darkness his own way instead.
Bahamut then makes Luna the new Ardyn. According to Gentiana, Bahamut's plan is to use Noct's light and Luna's darkness to wipe out humanity. (Luna is shocked, shocked I say.)
Luna and Noct decide to defy Bahamut, at which point he decides to wipe out humanity for their defiance (hadn't he already decided that? Whatever).
So, yeah. It's not even internally consistent, never mind consistent with canon. =\
Likes:
Nova
I give up, believe what you want.
I agree with all the references you have mentioned here, but you ignore the context of how these elements came together completely.
Which is: the former director of FFvXIII and FFXV releases a trailer (and a cutscene, if you will) with a character named Night Sky (having the same hairstyle and wearing bassicaly the same esemble as forementioned FFXV protagonist) and his double, walking through a very distinct Tokio setting which the unreleased game used, while in the background plays the main theme of that game mixed with Dearly Beloved.
Have you heard of the term "spiritual succesor"? Do you understand how it describes more than superficial similarities?
Do you think Xenogears and Xenosaga are connected merely on a superficial level?
I'm not saying that Verum Rex (if and when we get it) would be Versus xiii that we didn't get. It won't, but the versus we didn't get wasn't set in stone either, as it did not ever came to be.
That's my perspectime, and in the end, only SE and Nomura know what's up (if anything is).
I agree with all the references you have mentioned here, but you ignore the context of how these elements came together completely.
Which is: the former director of FFvXIII and FFXV releases a trailer (and a cutscene, if you will) with a character named Night Sky (having the same hairstyle and wearing bassicaly the same esemble as forementioned FFXV protagonist) and his double, walking through a very distinct Tokio setting which the unreleased game used, while in the background plays the main theme of that game mixed with Dearly Beloved.
Have you heard of the term "spiritual succesor"? Do you understand how it describes more than superficial similarities?
Do you think Xenogears and Xenosaga are connected merely on a superficial level?
I'm not saying that Verum Rex (if and when we get it) would be Versus xiii that we didn't get. It won't, but the versus we didn't get wasn't set in stone either, as it did not ever came to be.
That's my perspectime, and in the end, only SE and Nomura know what's up (if anything is).
It's possible Verum Rex will turn out to be what the Xenosaga and Xenoblade series were to Xenogears, meaning it'll share similar themes and archetypes to Versus and by extension, Fabula Nova Crystallis, but still be it's own thing.
Likes:
Vallen and andrzejp90
Hot take: Ravus deserved his own DLC story more than Aranea and he was more important a character to the story overall being Luna's brother and Noctis' foil/rival. Aranea could've teamed up with Ravus for the DLC but I find it weird the novel, especially Aranea's chapter, doesn't mention him at all. You'd think the two would've crossed paths. Ravus' part in Ep Ignis just made me wish he was in the game more.
Likes:
Lord_Ham_Mork and Dorothy95
While I would have loved a Ravus DLC what exactly would it have covered anyway? Ravus already received all of the story content that he was worth in my honest opinion. His character hinges on his relationship with Luna and Noctis. We see Luna's death change him in episode Ignis and through Chapter 13 verse 2 we finally see him accept Noctis as his king too which completes his arc. He's a complete character at this point meanwhile Aranea's DLC would've shown us the fall of Niflheim which she was there for and shown us the details of why she defected in addition to possibly giving us more Tennebrae.
Initially I wanted more Ravus as well but given some time to think on it I see now why they chose to go with Aranea instead. She's still got legitimate pieces of story that need telling and her perspective provides us with some never before seen events and areas while Ravus has gotten his most important story aspects out of the way and we've already seen the important and never before seen events he experienced through Iggy.
Initially I wanted more Ravus as well but given some time to think on it I see now why they chose to go with Aranea instead. She's still got legitimate pieces of story that need telling and her perspective provides us with some never before seen events and areas while Ravus has gotten his most important story aspects out of the way and we've already seen the important and never before seen events he experienced through Iggy.