Nomura vs Tabata, how well/bad they handle their projects

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May 26, 2014
419
938
#21
Sigh. Nomura technically has never been given the title of director with the exception of the KH series. You can look that up on Wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetsuya_Nomura. I'm not continuing this with you any further. When Storm sent me that link, I looked it up to see if I could find the original translation. Your name popped up on other forums and you are unnecessarily combative and defensive about FFXV. You're not going to change my opinion on this, and i'm not going to change yours so let's drop this.
Nomura is Director on FF7R, guess who the Producer is? Oh right it's Kitase! Nomura was Director on FF Versus XIII, guess who the Producer was? Yup, it was Kitase too! Wanna guess what Kitase's been credited for on many KH games? Yup, Producer! Even on Advent Children it was Kitase Producing while Nomura directing. Stop being such an apologist for Nomura already by constantly pretending like nothing is his fault. Maybe if you actually did your research properly you wouldn't have me explaining to you in detail about how you are wrong.
 
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stolas

ShinRa SOLDIER
Feb 20, 2018
156
256
#22
Nomura is Director on FF7R, guess who the Producer is? Oh right it's Kitase! Nomura was Director on FF Versus XIII, guess who the Producer was? Yup, it was Kitase too! Wanna guess what Kitase's been credited for on many KH games? Yup, Producer! Even on Advent Children it was Kitase Producing while Nomura directing. Stop being such an apologist for Nomura already by constantly pretending like nothing is his fault. Maybe if you actually did your research properly you wouldn't have me explaining to you in detail about how you are wrong.
Dear god, Kitase is usually the producer for bigger games for the company lol. That's like being surprised when Nomura is the Character Designer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshinori_Kitase. Out of the 12 games and one film that Nomura has directed, Kitase co-produced 4 times and has been named sole producer for FFVII R. Kitase was not the producer for FFVersusXIII, that was Shinjimoto.
If Nomura was as bad as you say he is and incompetent as a director why was he given the task of director for the remake of crown jewel and cash cow of the company? Also do you think if he was that problematic Disney, the mega corporation, would be okay with him at the helm? I'm leaving this link for FFVXIII development here. Blaming solely Nomura for it's problematic development of that game is illogical. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Versus_XIII#Development

Edit: an excerpt from the page:
2010: After Final Fantasy XIII launched resources could be shifted back to the Final Fantasy Versus XIII project, but technical issues were bringing the project nearly to a halt. According to then-Technology Director Julien Merceron, the "universal engine" Motomu Toriyama's team built for Final Fantasy XIII couldn't handle Versus XIIIanymore because it had been designed to fit the former's specifications, and buckled under the open-world environments designed for Versus, making it virtually unusable. Ultimately, Square Enix was forced to commission the creation of a brand new engine for Final Fantasy Versus XIII called Luminous Studio
 
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LeonBlade

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Oct 25, 2013
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#23
Try to keep things relatively civil if possible.

Also, if you don't like how someone is responding to you about something, it's easier to just ignore the conversation than it is to try and report each other over it. People are going to be passionate about this sort of thing, and some will take it too far. Try not to take this stuff too seriously.
 

stolas

ShinRa SOLDIER
Feb 20, 2018
156
256
#24
Try to keep things relatively civil if possible.

Also, if you don't like how someone is responding to you about something, it's easier to just ignore the conversation than it is to try and report each other over it. People are going to be passionate about this sort of thing, and some will take it too far. Try not to take this stuff too seriously.
Thank you for moving it to a separate thread, sorry it was clogging up the FFXV thread.
 

Vallen

AVALANCHE Warrior
Mar 4, 2018
258
572
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#25
I see two major screw ups with XV:

(1) SE failed to keep the project on track by constantly halting v13's production. They showed off the 2006 trailer before development began, they paused development to throw members around as resources to help with XIII and XIV's poor launch. They threw Nomura around to a dozen smaller games and projects and never gave him the time or team to properly work on v13. It was stop and go, stop and go, stop and go until the PS3 was outdated. Then they gave him a year or so to work on it as a rebranded project called XV, but then threw him on KH3 and FF7R. Blame square that the game took so long.

(2) Tabata. After they found a replacement for Nomura, another problem began. The guy literally worked primarily on portable games, yet they threw him on a AAA project with a limited dev time. So this man rather than using the groundwork of v13 decided to scrap most of it, completely disrespect the original vision, diminish important characters, and even near the end cut huge game elements he himself advertised. He literally (intentionally?) took out everything v13 had in mind, and then he even took out shit that he himself promised.
 
May 26, 2014
419
938
#26
Dear god, Kitase is usually the producer for bigger games for the company lol. That's like being surprised when Nomura is the Character Designer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshinori_Kitase. Out of the 12 games and one film that Nomura has directed, Kitase co-produced 4 times and has been named sole producer for FFVII R. Kitase was not the producer for FFVersusXIII, that was Shinjimoto.
If Nomura was as bad as you say he is and incompetent as a director why was he given the task of director for the remake of crown jewel and cash cow of the company? Also do you think if he was that problematic Disney, the mega corporation, would be okay with him at the helm? I'm leaving this link for FFVXIII development here. Blaming solely Nomura for it's problematic development of that game is illogical. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Versus_XIII#Development

Edit: an excerpt from the page:
2010: After Final Fantasy XIII launched resources could be shifted back to the Final Fantasy Versus XIII project, but technical issues were bringing the project nearly to a halt. According to then-Technology Director Julien Merceron, the "universal engine" Motomu Toriyama's team built for Final Fantasy XIII couldn't handle Versus XIIIanymore because it had been designed to fit the former's specifications, and buckled under the open-world environments designed for Versus, making it virtually unusable. Ultimately, Square Enix was forced to commission the creation of a brand new engine for Final Fantasy Versus XIII called Luminous Studio
Kitase was Producer of Versus, again maybe you should do some research, Kitase even talked about Versus and how it would be "sad" in the past, because he knew what it was doing because he was Producer on the game, both he and Hashimoto were, and in 2013 he left XV as Producer while Hashimoto stayed on as the sole producer.

Again Nomura is a bad at managing teams BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, which is why Tai Yasue is Co-director on the KH games now, which is why Tabata was even brought on to save FFXV, which is why Hamaguchi is Development Lead actually in charge of FF7R development, Nomura is just the creative lead on those, he's not a technical director, he doesn't know how to manage teams, that's why he has those people doing it for him, and with the way Japanese games especially at SE don't have a consistent way of crediting people especially in the same way games in the west does, you're just falling back onto a technicality of how things are named instead of what people actually do. Again did you miss the part where Kitase is the one that keeps propping Nomura up and giving him those roles? Kitase was the one who assigned Nomura to Direct FF7R to begin with, you wanted an answer as to why he still gets put on games, that answer is because of Kitase.

Seeing as all of your understanding of Versus is jut from reading Wikipedia it's obvious you havn't done any extension research into this, so that explains your desperate defence of Nomura as if he did no wrong and his games are always smooth and never in trouble.

Again maybe if you did some research you would know that in 2010 Ebony Engine was created specifically for Versus from Crystal Tools, and that is what Versus was being made on in 2010 and through to 2011 and 2012, and what FFXV was using on the new prototype build in 2012 through to mid 2013 too, until it only in JULY 2013 then started to migrate to Luminous Engine.

Luminous Engine was in development since 2010 and Versus at first was only going to use lighting tech from it, while the engine itself according to Nomura was a "Versus specific engine" that he stated it was using in 2011, and that Versus specific engine was later clarified by both Tabata and Takeshi Aramaki as being Ebony Engine, aka as the Black Engine, and it was named that specifically to contrast with FF13s Crystal Tools which was originally named White Engine.

And again, maybe if you read what I actually said you would see that I'm not placing the sole blame on Nomura, but he is a MAJOR REASON why Versus was such a mess even after they actually had an engine to make Versus on in 2010 with Ebony Engine and had a team, that is why Versus was going to be cancelled in 2012 because Nomura's game was such a mess, which even Tabata stated that 90% of the people on the game did not want to merge with Nomura's team because of how bad the reputation Versus had within the company.

Please, do some actual research into things and don't just skim Wikipedia articles and pretend like you know what you are talking about.

(2) Tabata. After they found a replacement for Nomura, another problem began. The guy literally worked primarily on portable games, yet they threw him on a AAA project with a limited dev time. So this man rather than using the groundwork of v13 decided to scrap most of it, completely disrespect the original vision, diminish important characters, and even near the end cut huge game elements he himself advertised. He literally (intentionally?) took out everything v13 had in mind, and then he even took out shit that he himself promised.
The hell are you talkiing about? By this logic no one is allowed to have promotions from lower budget games to higher budget ones, what does his past work have to do with anything? Before KH all Nomura did was design characters and do storyboards with some story ideas, he never directed a game before KH. And what is "most of it" that was scrapped from Versus? Barely anything was even made to begin with. What "vision" did he disrespect? What "important characters" did he dimisih? What game elements near the end of the game did he cut out that "he himself advertised"? What did Versus 13 have in mind? A roadtrip about bros? Check. A fantasy based on reality? Check. Action RPG combat? Check. World you can explore? Check. Yoko Shimomura music? Check. The main cast of Noctis the prince of Lucis, Gladio his bodyguard, Ignis his advisor, Prompto his close friend? Check. What did he "took out" that he himself "promised?

Sounds like you really don't know what the hell you are talking about, there was more story changes from FF7's original concept to the final game than there was from what ever we saw of Versus to the final XV we got.
 
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Jenova

SeeD A-Class
Oct 28, 2013
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#27
(2) Tabata. After they found a replacement for Nomura, another problem began. The guy literally worked primarily on portable games, yet they threw him on a AAA project with a limited dev time. So this man rather than using the groundwork of v13 decided to scrap most of it, completely disrespect the original vision, diminish important characters, and even near the end cut huge game elements he himself advertised. He literally (intentionally?) took out everything v13 had in mind, and then he even took out shit that he himself promised.
There's nothing wrong with that. That's how people improve. By being given tasks that are beyond their abilities. Episode Ignis was directed by someone with no prior major game lead experience as far was we are aware. Now he's directing all the future DLC content for Final Fantasy XV. Fresh faces and unknown talent getting their time in the spotlight should be greatly encouraged. Many known quantities at Square-Enix only got their recognition from smaller contributions to larger projects. Discouraging people to aspire and attempt because of their previous credentials is just an elitist worldview I cannot bring myself to co-sign. Not to mention always relaying on "old dogs" can sometimes lead to the same mistakes being repeated over and over again. New perspectives can open new opportunities in creativity. As for time constants, that wasn't Tabata's fault as shared before. Nor was it Nomura's fault. That was Square-Enix's fault. The higher-ups choose not to delay the game to allow it the necessary polish. Tabata didn't really have a say in the matter. Just like Nomura didn't have a say in the matter when he was pulled off Versus XIII/XV and put onto the Final Fantasy VII Remake. Again, let's not marginalize these men for events outside of their locust of control.
 
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T.O.T

Knight of Death
Feb 2, 2017
451
401
#28
(2) Tabata. After they found a replacement for Nomura, another problem began. The guy literally worked primarily on portable games, yet they threw him on a AAA project with a limited dev time. So this man rather than using the groundwork of v13 decided to scrap most of it, completely disrespect the original vision, diminish important characters, and even near the end cut huge game elements he himself advertised. He literally (intentionally?) took out everything v13 had in mind, and then he even took out shit that he himself promised.
Do any of us really know what Versus XIII had in mind fully in the first place? If I recall correctly, Nomura didn't exactly do a lot of interviews during that time era in regards to the project. Sure, Tabata may lack the creative flexibility that others have, but there's no denying the fact he is able to execute and keep moral from completely bottoming out. Yes, certain things from Versus XIII did not translate over to FFXV. Even if time is not a factor in development, technology will be. Nomura actually spoke on that some years back https://www.polygon.com/2013/6/19/4...nal-fantasy-versus-13-became-final-fantasy-15 .

At the end of the day regardless of who you prefer, there should be a balance between creativity and what realistically can be done in a reasonable fashion. It's very easy to point fingers at one person or another (I've been guilty of this myself). In all honesty, FFXV is just too ambitious of a project (least console side) to have been able to come out problem free.
 
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Lulcielid

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Oct 9, 2014
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#29
(2) Tabata. After they found a replacement for Nomura, another problem began. The guy literally worked primarily on portable games, yet they threw him on a AAA project with a limited dev time. So this man rather than using the groundwork of v13 decided to scrap most of it, completely disrespect the original vision, diminish important characters, and even near the end cut huge game elements he himself advertised. He literally (intentionally?) took out everything v13 had in mind, and then he even took out shit that he himself promised.
Tabata having worked with portable games up to that point doesn't change a few things:

1. Neither him nor Nomura had been at the helm of an AAA game before.
2. Neither had made an HD title prior.

So the project would still have the same type of man in charge (in all but name).
 
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Storm

Warrior of Light
Oct 26, 2013
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#30
we can discuss this all day, the fact remains the same.

Nomura was removed of the project.
Versus XIII didn't release, and that alone speaks a lot.

Tabata is not an amazing director for sure, but he had to deal with a trainwreck of a project as his first AAA in a tight schedule; of course that affected the quality of the final game; both SQ mismanagement and directors have to take responsability, of course its not a 50/50 situation so we don't which one is more to blame.
 
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Vallen

AVALANCHE Warrior
Mar 4, 2018
258
572
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#31
1) And what is "most of it" that was scrapped from Versus? Barely anything was even made to begin with. What "vision" did he disrespect?

2) What "important characters" did he dimisih?

3) What game elements near the end of the game did he cut out that "he himself advertised"? What did he "took out" that he himself "promised?

4) Sounds like you really don't know what the hell you are talking about
1) 99% of scenarios or scenes from the 2006-2013 trailers.

2) Aldercapt, Ravus, Stella/Luna, you could also count Regis/Glauca since they were cut from the game.

3) Are you trying to act incompetent on purpose here? Go watch all the trailers from 2014-to the game's launch and count how many scenes/areas/gameplay elements got cut. These were the years when the game was under Tabata, he knew exactly what they were showcasing, and yet so much of it got cut.

4) Sounds like you're blinded by Nomura hate and have nothing of substance to say when people criticize the way the project turned out under Tabata.

Tabata is not an amazing director for sure, but he had to deal with a trainwreck of a project as his first AAA in a tight schedule; of course that affected the quality of the final game; both SQ mismanagement and directors have to take responsability, of course its not a 50/50 situation so we don't which one is more to blame.
You're right, and in fact I'd even say SE are mostly at fault.
 
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T.O.T

Knight of Death
Feb 2, 2017
451
401
#32
1) 99% of scenarios or scenes from the 2006-2013 trailers.

2) Aldercapt, Ravus, Stella/Luna, you could also count Regis/Glauca since they were cut from the game.

3) Are you trying to act incompetent on purpose here? Go watch all the trailers from 2014-to the game's launch and count how many scenes/areas/gameplay elements got cut. These were the years when the game was under Tabata, he knew exactly what they were showcasing, and yet so much of it got cut.

4) Sounds like you're blinded by Nomura hate and have nothing of substance to say when people criticize the way the project turned out under Tabata.
1. Wasn't it confirmed at one point that Nomura had considered turning the project into a musical? http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06/13/e3-2013-final-fantasy-xv-was-almost-a-musical

2. Aldercapt is not a major character in the large scheme of things, even if past trailers made that appear to be the case. Regis and Luna got their focus mainly in Kingsglaive. Ravus got his time to really shine in Episode Ignis. It's hard to say how important Glauca should have been. And before you say "well that should have been in the base game" or anything along those lines keep in mind this was planned to span multiple games at one point in time. Also, FFXV is not exactly a tiny file game...it's pretty huge. My hard drive feels it.

3. Tabata during some of the ATRs was pretty open about certain elements/aspects being cut or changed. Like I've said in the past, in game development things get cut or changed all the time. This is not unique to FFXV; we simply knew more about what took place due to how long the product had been known about.

4. Tabata gets more crap than what he deserves truth be told. While some like to try and give the narrative "he ruined FFXV", at the same time if it wasn't for him we may not be talking about FFXV at all at this point. I could say many Pro Versus XIII fans are blinded by hate...which honestly if you want to know why so many of them get hate from others is because 1. They live in the past...literally. 2. They often use more head canon than actual facts in their arguments.
I also think that design is cool af, and will continue saying so just to piss them off haha
^ And stuff like that...is just disgusting in my eyes. Sure, you can disagree with people all day, but when you're doing it to get a reaction out of somebody else....that's just toxicity in my eyes.
 
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LeonBlade

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#33
At the time, FFXIV was failing and SE was trying to use Crystal Tools on virtually every project in the company without any regard to keeping things in check. You had multiple projects coming asking for things with the engine and not ever conforming to a standard. This is the era in SQEX where they tried to spend only a single year to create a story that would dictate the future story of all Final Fantasy titles going forward (Fabula Nova Crystallis).

Versus' failure was on many hands, and it's because SQEX internally was an absolute mess. Also, I just wanted to point out, that a director on the game doesn't make critical decisions about the funding or technology that gets put into it. Basically, Nomura wasn't top dog for Versus. The director does have a lot of weight for a game of course, but upper management always has the last word.

Anyone who has read about Nomura knows that he's socially introverted, he's awkward and kind of weird. That's just the type of person he is. He's a creative person, remember, he started at SQEX doing debugging work and some illustrations to becoming the creative mind for one of SQEX's biggest series of all time, Kingdom Hearts.

I think given a better environment, Nomura could have created a better game. You have to realize again this was a time when SQEX announced THREE in house titles to be developed at the same time while developing a new game engine from scratch for all of them and other titles. They simply had too much on their plate and the company just crumbled.

Compare that to what we saw from SQEX at E3 this year where they basically had nothing at all and only showed two games developed in house, one of them being already released in Japan (DQXI). Also, the company is now relying on Unreal Engine instead of trying to make their own engine because it's clear they don't have the staff/budget for it despite being Square fucking Enix.

In an age where these big studios are still developing their own engines even today with UE being a thing, SQEX is pushing their biggest titles like KHIII, FFVIIR and DQXI being developed by a third party engine.

Anyway, I think you get the point. The reason Versus failed and XV was disappointing is SQEX upper management's fault. They went in over their head and allowed stupid decisions to be made within the company that almost destroyed them (FFXIV's initial launch). After hiring a new CEO for the company, they've actually got back on track and are doing quite well for themselves.

It's easy to look at the figure heads for these games and to just assume it's all their fault, but many things go into creating a video game, and just by looking at the past of SQEX and all the weird shit they were trying to do (seriously one year to create a story for the rest of FF?) you can see what led us to where XV is today.

Oh, and let me also mention, SQEX demanded XV release on 2016 which is why the game is in the state that it is. They should have been more transparent about the whole thing and just delayed the game but they put all their eggs in one basket trying to recover from years prior.

Let's just hope FFXVI doesn't have any major issues with the team exploding internally going forward.
 
Aug 14, 2016
458
556
All over
#34
we can discuss this all day, the fact remains the same.

Nomura was removed of the project.
Versus XIII didn't release, and that alone speaks a lot.

Tabata is not an amazing director for sure, but he had to deal with a trainwreck of a project as his first AAA in a tight schedule; of course that affected the quality of the final game; both SQ mismanagement and directors have to take responsability, of course its not a 50/50 situation so we don't which one is more to blame.
Well, I disagree on the last point. Tabata IS an amazing director just simply from the fact he took a tire fire of a project and led the team to make a game (and engine!) that resonated with many fans the world over.

Don't forget that in March of 2013, there was a complete shake-up of upper management at SE. After a disastrous FY, Wada resigned. The current CEO took over in June 2013. And in late 2013, there was a massive restructuring of the business units. It was during this time that upper management made the decision for Tabata to take over. And we can extrapolate that:
  • FFXV must be a complete game. No "world of Versus epic" or whatever.
  • FFXV needs to be its own entity and not tied to FNC
  • It must release in 2016.
  • I suspect -- no direct evidence -- that it was mandated FFXV be open world.
There needed to be some very hard choices made here. From the cut content, it seems like they wanted to keep as much of Versus as possible -- but there was simply no time. Also -- recall that BD2 does not have near the amount of staff that a CDPR, Ubisoft, EA, etc. has. Furthermore with the staff he did have, he completely upended the existing development hierarchy and brought the team kicking and screaming to modern development methodologies. And to keep the team engaged and focused (with probably an obscene schedule) -- wow. (There's a reason that the job postings for Luminous Productions strictly limit work hours from 9AM to 6:30PM. God bless you, Tabata.)

Succeeding in spite of the above does qualify as amazing. I speak from many years working and leading enterprise software teams.

However, his strengths are certainly not in narrative or world-building. And FFXV does bear the scars of a game with surgically excised parts. It's my favorite FF game, but I can readily discuss its glaring flaws.

Was Versus all Nomura's fault? Of course not. @LeonBlade detailed SE's issues during the PS3 era. I take it at face value that the primary reason he ended up being removed was Kingdom Hearts III -- Occam's Razor and all. The TGS 2014 press release and Wan Hazmer said as much. Let's not forget that Disney owns the IP. And it probably didn't escape their attention that there hadn't been a mainline KH game since 2005.

Nomura's strengths and weaknesses are the inverse of Tabata. A FFXV that released in 2018 with Nomura handing the creative and Tabata handling the game systems and management could have united the FF fanbase and ushered in an age of peace and prosperity the world over. But alas.

And I keep saying this in every stealth Versus XIII topic. What makes people think that Versus was actually -- you know -- good? Mismanagement aside, if Versus was as transcendent as a few trailers and fans' head canon would have you believe -- SE would have released...Versus.
 
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Vallen

AVALANCHE Warrior
Mar 4, 2018
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#35
2. Aldercapt is not a major character in the large scheme of things, even if past trailers made that appear to be the case.

3. Tabata during some of the ATRs was pretty open about certain elements/aspects being cut or changed. Like I've said in the past, in game development things get cut or changed all the time.

4. And stuff like that...is just disgusting in my eyes. Sure, you can disagree with people all day, but when you're doing it to get a reaction out of somebody else....that's just toxicity in my eyes.
2. Not really, he was pretty important in the old trailers.

3. Sure, but when scenes they showed during Uncovered (6-months before the game's launch) were cut from the main game, that's either false advertising or incompetent management. Pick your poison in which you wanna beleive.

4. I live in a free country with free speech, when I say I like something (without insulting whatever others like) and I get attacked for my tastes, you're damn right my opinion will only be strengthened and I'll keep on saying it and firmly stay behind it. Who did I disagree with when I said I like the v13 Noct costume much better and I'm happy modders put it in the game? Answer me.
 

Lulcielid

Warrior of Light
Oct 9, 2014
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#36
4. I live in a free country with free speech, when I say I like something (without insulting whatever others like) and I get attacked for my tastes, you're damn right my opinion will only be strengthened and I'll keep on saying it and firmly stay behind it. Who did I disagree with when I said I like the v13 Noct costume much better and I'm happy modders put it in the game? Answer me.
Maybe not insulting but if you behave like an asshole don't expect a warm response.

There is a lot of v13 hate online, I keep getting into arguments on the XV reddit when people attack me for saying Nomura's vision looked cooler in my eyes. Recently I got like 20 downvotes for saying I like the 'trash bag' costume that was modded in lol. I also think that design is cool af, and will continue saying so just to piss them off haha
https://www.mognetcentral.com/threads/final-fantasy-xv-general-news-thread.3288/page-826#post-64509
 

Vallen

AVALANCHE Warrior
Mar 4, 2018
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#37
That's exactly what I said, it's also on the first post of this thread if you hadn't noticed. And don't expect me to change my mind by insulting my opinion when I said nothing about your preference. It's my preference..

Here, I'll say it again:
I.like.the.old.Noct.costume.better.much.much.better.than.the.current.one.
I.love.the.old.costume.it.is.the.best.design.the.character.had.in.my.opinion.

And I'll quote what I said again to make a point:
There is a lot of v13 hate online, I keep getting into arguments on the XV reddit when people attack me for saying Nomura's vision looked cooler in my eyes. Recently I got like 20 downvotes for saying I like the 'trash bag' costume that was modded in lol. I also think that design is cool af, and will continue saying so just to piss them off haha
 
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Vallen

AVALANCHE Warrior
Mar 4, 2018
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#40
No, he said I do it to get a reaction of out of someone. And I didn't do that with my original statement.